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The issue with this ranking is cell phone data is spotty and the downtown boundaries they use is wrong for all cities.
For example, with MTL, they have it in the 40-50% return, when in reality we're closer to 80-90% back to pre-pandemic levels (festival season exceeds pre-pandemic levela). St. Catherine street has had a 120% increase YoY pedestrian activity, 95% of about 150K+ students are back, etc.
Return to office is stagnant and our vacancy rate shooting up has been mainly cause of the tech industry. Our downtown has the highest concentration of tech firms in Canada and they're the ones who are never at the office. Vacancy rate will go up more since we have 1.6M sq ft of office space coming online in Q4.
If the cell data was spotty before, it probably is still spotty now and they're using a comparison to 2019 data. If anything, improvements in cell tower deployment would artificially *inflate* usage. I think another larger issue is that the data goes out to spring and a lot of cities saw a nice summer recovery (which I assume is the Montreal festival season) and we're now already in Q3 / fall.
I did take the findings with a grain of salt and pointed out that it did not include summer data and the ranking I made certainly wasn't in line with their index as part of the criteria OP posted included other aspects aside from just recovery of office spaces and people walking the streets. I do think I may have overranked DC, but part of that is also that I like a lot of aspects of DC and how unique it is as a mid-rise downtown with continuous street wall as well as the surfeit of monumental architecture.
New York City - it was so outsized compared to the rest before the pandemic, and it's recovered relatively well. Midtown with its offices have definitely suffered a bit, but again, it was so packed to begin with that it's still a titan. Meanwhile, Hudson Yards development kept going and while perhaps not as full as originally intended, it's still quite a bit of activity.
Chicago - Strong concentration of institutions there; office vacancies are still pretty high, but it had already shifted towards a lot more residential in the past couple of decades prior to the pandemic and had essentially expanded it out in all directions save for the lake especially the burgeoning west loop. It gets a lot of points for urban planning though as just one of the best looking downtowns around with a lot of engineering marvels and just altogether a great and very distinctive downtown
Philadelphia - The downtown I have the most post pandemic experience with seemed absolutely booming this past summer; while Center City is a major office center, it was also very residential, tourism and nightlife centered before the pandemic and seemed to have retained this and it's fantastic.
Montreal - Similar to Philadelphia above though I think had stronger weight on office jobs? I haven't been to Canada since the pandemic though. I think given the emphasis poster seems to put on livability and liveliness, Montreal's downtown maybe gets ahead of Toronto's for now?
Toronto - It supposedly has been hit harder according to that index and it certainly is a major office center so gets hit with that which is why I put it lower. Prior to the pandemic, I might have put this just below Chicago.
Boston - My most recent experience outside of NYC with and it seemed to be doing fairly well. However, the nightlife component of it isn't great nor is the diversity and options downtown particularly great though that held before the pandemic as well; also MBTA seems to be going through some wild screw ups including within downtown.
San Francisco - Despite being low on the recovery index and high on office concentrations downtown, SF was so outsized that I think it still ranks really high up there. Prior to the pandemic, I probably would have put this above Philadelphia, Montreal, and Boston. I have read that parts of downtown have been getting cleaned up from their pandemic era nadir, and so with the fairly intense built density of San Francisco and the major project of Caltrain electrification where it runs almost at rapid transit levels of service and thus can bring in a large and often wealthy population to and from downtown, I think San Francisco will probably go back up pretty rapidly in the coming years
DC - Seems to have made a decent recovery, but haven't been there since last year; also as a more buttoned-up town, is it wrong to assume that DC employers may be more aggressive with return to office work? DC's downtown was lively from tourists, but not as bustling at night which might have to do with the wide streets and perhaps many still sparsely populated offices. DC's downtown does deserve points for being very distinctive though, so it's hard for me to figure out where to place it on the list.
Los Angeles - Downtown LA also did a large residential shift in the last couple of decades and now has its through-running light rail tunnel underground (still needs to up frequency though which is supposedly coming pretty soon) and has made good recent efforts to clean up its transit system; wasn't there for that opening, but was there fairly recently and large parts of downtown LA were bustling though skid row is still pretty rough.
Vancouver - Supposedly was hit hard by the pandemic, but that high residential component probably still has it doing pretty well.
Seattle - Hard hit like SF and was smaller and less bustling to begin with; maybe tie with Vancouver though because nightlife in Vancouver seems really limited.
If we were doing secondary downtowns, I'd probably put downtown Brooklyn between Chicago and Philadelphia and Long Island City right behind downtown DC.
What downtowns have been slowest to recover and bounce back in the US?
Maybe for cities over 1 million metro area? I'd think it hit certain ones a lot harder than others--and many are still reeling with lack of foot traffic, businesses still closed and workers no longer downtown.
What are your thoughts? From what I've heard and read--here are a few that are slow to recover, but I'm hoping bounce back faster--
*Phoenix
*Houston
*Dallas
*Kansas City
*Indianapolis
*Cleveland
*St Louis
*Louisville, KY
*Minneapolis
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpomp
Good timing, a report released by the Center City District yesterday dives into a few recovery metrics for several downtowns (just USA). Yes, every study varies, but this was still interesting.
Yeah there's a number of tidbits and takeaways from this. It is a lot of data so one can go anywhere with the dissection. Firstly people should see the maps for each city in the Appendix as to which is being determined the "Core Downtown" vs "Greater Downtown". That goes a long way in explaining things. I'll just post the orders and not totals for most of these.
For starters:
PERCENTAGE OF GREATER DOWNTOWN EMPLOYED RESIDENTS WHO WORK IN GREATER DOWNTOWN, 2020:
Midtown Manhattan
Chicago
Washington DC
San Francisco
Boston
Philadelphia
Nashville
Portland
Seattle
Charlotte
Austin
Indianapolis
Denver
Memphis
Dallas
Lower Manhattan
Columbus
Atlanta
Jacksonville
Fort Worth
Houston
Los Angeles
San Antonio
San Diego
Phoenix
San Jose
NET MIGRATION TO CORE DOWNTOWN, Post 2020 loss= Population gain Jan 2021- Dec 2022
Washington DC
Chicago
Midtown Manhattan
Boston
Portland
Atlanta
Philadelphia
Indianapolis
Seattle
Denver
Los Angeles
Dallas
San Francisco
Columbus
Austin
Phoenix
Nashville
San Diego
Houston
Charlotte
San Jose
Jacksonville
Fort Worth
San Antonio
Memphis
RESIDENTS IN GREATER DOWNTOWN IN 2023 Q2 COMPARED TO 2019 Q2:
Portland
Houston
Los Angeles
Dallas
Seattle
San Francisco
Atlanta
Denver
Washington DC
Memphis
Midtown Manhattan
Philadelphia
Charlotte
Lower Manhattan
San Diego
Columbus
San Jose
Boston
Nashville
Austin
Chicago
Indianapolis
Fort Worth
San Antonio
Phoenix
RESIDENTS, WORKERS AND VISITORS IN CORE DOWNTOWN IN 2023 Q2 COMPARED TO 2019 Q2:
Nashville
San Jose
San Diego
Memphis
Philadelphia
Midtown Manhattan
Charlotte
Phoenix
Los Angeles
Houston
San Antonio
Austin
Boston
Indianapolis
Dallas
Fort Worth
Columbus
Seattle
Atlanta
Lower Manhattan
Jacksonville
Chicago
Denver
Portland
Washington DC
San Francisco
NON-RESIDENT WORKERS IN CORE DOWNTOWN IN 2023 Q2 COMPARED TO 2019 Q2:
San Antonio
Nashville
Midtown Manhattan
San Diego
Memphis
Fort Worth
Philadelphia
Charlotte
Houston
Lower Manhattan
San Jose
Los Angeles
Austin
Boston
Dallas
Indianapolis
Phoenix
Chicago
Columbus
Jacksonville
Washington DC
Atlanta
Seattle
Denver
Portland
San Francisco
If this comes to pass, this will be a major project for downtown LA. 7.6 acres of mixed-use for residential, office, commercial, retail, public space, and hospitality including a 44-story tower replacing mostly storage facilities and parking lots.
Quote:
If fully built out, the development would consist of more than 2.3 million square feet of new construction, highlighted by 1,521 residential units - including 949 rental units, 572 for-sale homes, and 214 units of affordable housing. Other components of the project would include roughly 411,000 square feet of offices, approximately 45,000 square feet of retail space, nearly 56,000 square feet of restaurant space, and a 68-key hotel
Its size and scale isn't the only thing though as its location is also notable as part of it is pushing into Skid Row.
What downtowns have been slowest to recover and bounce back in the US?
Maybe for cities over 1 million metro area? I'd think it hit certain ones a lot harder than others--and many are still reeling with lack of foot traffic, businesses still closed and workers no longer downtown.
What are your thoughts? From what I've heard and read--here are a few that are slow to recover, but I'm hoping bounce back faster--
*Phoenix
*Houston
*Dallas
*Kansas City
*Indianapolis
*Cleveland
*St Louis
*Louisville, KY
*Minneapolis
I always said that St. Louis has one of the most underwhelming Downtowns in the top 50 MSA's. It just isn't inviting. Within the Central Corridor there are three building clusters between the river and 170 that is a ten mile stretch. I've read downtown St. Louis's numbers are not inclusive of the riverfront and downtown west. That kind of skewing the playing field.
I know Minneapolis had a much further way to fall than a Nashville type city. The retail and daytime numbers represents a city that functions in a different way.
Once again, I don't think the ranking is giving the full picture for quality of urban living. All of the cities listed have different dynamics.
What downtowns have been slowest to recover and bounce back in the US?
Maybe for cities over 1 million metro area? I'd think it hit certain ones a lot harder than others--and many are still reeling with lack of foot traffic, businesses still closed and workers no longer downtown.
What are your thoughts? From what I've heard and read--here are a few that are slow to recover, but I'm hoping bounce back faster--
*Phoenix
*Houston
*Dallas
*Kansas City
*Indianapolis
*Cleveland
*St Louis
*Louisville, KY
*Minneapolis
This article is very broad brush/stereotypical of Midwestern cities, and dated. In Cleveland, for example, the downtown population, from 2010 to 2023, has grown from around 10K to 23K. Old building/office adaptive-reuse has exploded to the extent there are few convertible buildings left, while 3 brand new large apt towers have gone up in the core (plus one mid-rise in the Flats)-- another large one is rising (on Bolivar Ave) while several others are planned.
Yes, the under-utilization of the downtown Lake Erie waterfront is old news, but North Coast Harbor, with the (expanding) Rock Hall, a small apt building, and a major restaurant, is moving on a major expansion plan around Browns Stadium (which may be relocated off the lake to provide even more expansion room). But the article fails to mention the explosive rebirth of the Flats East Bank (and West Bank) area along the adjacent Cuyahoga River with several apt complexes, tons of restaurants, boardwalks, the aquarium, a hotel, and many small craft (even paddle boats and jet ski). And now, thanks to Bedrock, Dan Gilbert's real estate arm of his Rocket Mortgage Co., the massive Tower City, Cleveland's historic mass transit mixed-use complex, is moving on a huge riverfront plan to expand the TC complex down to the River, with office buildings, apt towers, a hotel, and an expanded boardwalk ... among other things, which will expand the Flats southward. ... In short, the Flats has reshaped itself into, once again, one of the major nightlife, residential, and tourist destinations of the Midwest.
This 66-floor residential building with a ground floor restaurant space was the first high-rise to open in downtown Los Angeles since the start of the pandemic: https://la.urbanize.city/post/take-l...partment-tower
It opened in May of 2023 though parts of it were still in the midst of opening at the time and the restaurant space isn't slated to open until early next year. It's great in that it replaces a long, long vacant lot in downtown Los Angeles that had been cursed by start-stop development plans. Across the street is a 42 story tower residential tower that's also looking to open this year that will have a retail space on the ground floor: https://la.urbanize.city/post/42-sto...-tops-out-dtla
The pandemic slowed a lot of projects down in downtown Los Angeles as a lot of them were quite large projects, but it seems like there's going to be some making up for lost time.
But the article fails to mention the explosive rebirth of the Flats East Bank (and West Bank) area along the adjacent Cuyahoga River with several apt complexes, tons of restaurants, boardwalks, the aquarium, a hotel, and many small craft (even paddle boats and jet ski).
Paddle boats on the Cuyahoga? I'm old enough to remember when that river caught on fire!
One thing to note is that quite a few of the top candidates had very large infrastructure projects open in downtown since the pandemic.
New York City had the Grand Central Madison extension of its LIRR commuter rail network which was incredibly costly and of unfortunately marginal usefulness given the way it was done since it is a terminal station in a downtown that needed its commuter rail to be through-running. At least parts of the station are interesting.
Montreal had the most useful and likely consequential transit project with the opening of the REM driverless completely grade-separated metro with frequent service. It's at the moment only five stations with one of those five stations at Gare Central downtown connecting to a wide range of services and next year will open another 18 stations along two branches with an additional station downtown. This is probably the most transformative transit project of all cities in Northern America and it was done at a, for Northern America standards, an astoundingly low price even considering it took over some existing ROW.
San Francisco saw the opening of its Central Subway extension of its light rail system through a tunnel in downtown with four stations. It's a pretty short extension that is deep underground in parts so unfortunately doesn't save much or sometimes any time for a lot of the people it's expanded to in the downtown area. This project actually needs to expand well past downtown to new areas in the city going through downtown to make it useful.
Los Angeles had the opening of its regional connector which is a good counterpart to what was said about SF above. Here, light rail lines that were disconnected were linked in order to go through downtown and run through each other with three new stations. This is quite an improvement on the old system. It does need work on a few things mostly outside of downtown to operate well, but at least there's the good news that the agency will increase frequencies fairly soon.
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