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DC’s core isn’t even remotely square shaped so using “simple math” is frankly silly. If we are using Columbia heights as “core” DC then you need to hold the same energy and be just as liberal with core definition as other Bos-Wash cities.
Theres no assumptions that need to be made. DC’s core is not at as big as you think it is. It’s that simple.
Ugh… Westport, Canton, Brooklyn and Cherry Hill aren’t in the same picture to scale for Baltimore.
So once again, DC is not as geographically big as you think it is.
To start, DC’s core is a diamond. It’s not square. The neighborhoods included in DC’s urban core have a mix of multifamily units and row houses. Since you believe DC’s urban core should not include certain neighborhoods, name the neighborhoods you think aren’t part of DC’s urban core. Unlike a city like Baltimore or Philly, DC has a lot of apartment buildings at all different heights within urban core neighborhoods. In the diamond I created, which neighborhoods should not be included?
The argument I’ve made before about cities like Baltimore and Philly that are flat with rowhouse neighborhoods that are never ending is if you’re including those neighborhoods, what do you exclude? We need a definition of what a neighborhood should have to be part of the urban core. Also, what proximity should it have? The only neighborhood in DC that I included with mainly rowhouses that is flat similar to Baltimore and Philly neighborhoods is Capitol Hill, but I included that neighborhood because of its proximity to Downtown DC. What is your justification for including flat rowhouse neighborhoods that don’t touch Downtown Baltimore?
Last edited by MDAllstar; 08-13-2023 at 06:27 AM..
I think this is fair. But 6.25 sq mi is a large core for a compact city if you ask me. Would you be able to pull up the core for Bos, Philly? NYC can be left out. Also SF and Chicago would be interesting to take a look at. Oh yea and Baltimore tew.
For Philly I'm thinking South of Spring Garden, and north of say maybe Spruce? Idk probably a Philly poster could help better there. Then West to either 38th or 40th st/Drexel, and East all the way to the Delaware River. Boston's shape is odd that defining it's "core" without exiting city limits is super challenging with that tool. The next big thing would be how we calculate population totals for each.
"Center City" – the historic city core of Philadelphia – has very clearly agreed-upon boundaries, based on the borders of the pre-consolidation municipalities that made up Philadelphia County. They're the borders of the 1682 Town/1701 City of Philadelphia: Vine Street on the north, South Street on the south, and the two rivers on the east and west.
Everything north of it, including Spring Garden, is technically "North Philadelphia," and everything south of it is technically "South Philadelphia". West of it is West Philadelphia, whose eastern tip is generally known as "University City" now. East of it is Camden.
As redevelopment spread outward from the core, the neighborhoods immediately adjacent to Center City began to be regarded as extensions of the core. This would take the enlarged core north to Fairmount Avenue and south to Washington Avenue. Because these boundaries split ZIP codes, and in some cases neighborhoods, the Center City District puts the northern boundary of the extended core at Girard Avenue and the southern border at Tasker Street.
The two next-door-neighbor universities that give U-City its name had been generating their own redevelopment, and in the 1990s, that spread to the vicinity of the intercity train station at 30th and Market. As the office district also spread westward, U-City and Center City have grown towards each other, and West Philadelphia east of 40th Street (to take in all of both the Penn and Drexel campuses) and south of the Main Line railroad tracks could now be considered an extension of the core.
I think this is fair. But 6.25 sq mi is a large core for a compact city if you ask me. Would you be able to pull up the core for Bos, Philly? NYC can be left out. Also SF and Chicago would be interesting to take a look at. Oh yea and Baltimore tew.
For Philly I'm thinking South of Spring Garden, and north of say maybe Spruce? Idk probably a Philly poster could help better there. Then West to either 38th or 40th st/Drexel, and East all the way to the Delaware River. Boston's shape is odd that defining it's "core" without exiting city limits is super challenging with that tool. The next big thing would be how we calculate population totals for each.
I think we can realistically say Georgia Avenue Metro Station is the northern most boundary of DC’s urban core. Draw a line southwest to Georgetown from there which includes Columbia Heights/Mount Pleasant/Adams Morgan. Draw a line southeast which includes the McMillian Redevelopment, Eckington/Bryant Street Redevelopment/Union Market/Trinidad and ends at the RFK campus. The southern boundary is the Potomac River and Anacostia River. If you don’t agree with that, what would you exclude? That is the 20 sq. miles I always reference when talking about DC’s urban core. I’ve been using this definition for years on city-data.com because that is the development zone.
On a side note about the RFK campus, can we all stand up and give everyone involved a standing ovation for finally getting this deal done. Navy Yard 2.0 is finally coming to the 190 acre RFK campus. Another DC waterfront neighborhood of highrises and restaurants on the water deserves some excitement!
I think this is fair. But 6.25 sq mi is a large core for a compact city if you ask me. Would you be able to pull up the core for Bos, Philly? NYC can be left out. Also SF and Chicago would be interesting to take a look at. Oh yea and Baltimore tew.
For Philly I'm thinking South of Spring Garden, and north of say maybe Spruce? Idk probably a Philly poster could help better there. Then West to either 38th or 40th st/Drexel, and East all the way to the Delaware River. Boston's shape is odd that defining it's "core" without exiting city limits is super challenging with that tool. The next big thing would be how we calculate population totals for each.
Boston with its downtown making up the northernmost boundaries of the city makes it difficult to compare in these discussions. They’ve probably been had a million times on these threads. The whole can you include Cambridge/somerville.
I’d say the inner urban core is around central/harvard square to north (or if this is too west maybe Cambridge crossing more directly north), longwood medical area to west, eastern areas of seaport, and Nubian square to south which is your 16-20 sq miles
Philly the city.....not even close to the 3 cities listed.
A big town, more than big city with outstanding suburbs and a great location close to DC and NYC.
Yes, the neighborhoods are urban feel, but when talking where most people visit and the post says has an urban feel like NYC, only two cities are close and they are not even close, but different, but World Class cities in own right.
Philly is not world class.
As others have pointed out, this is a very cherry picked argument.
You omitted Boston and Philly based on your (lack of) experience in each city. Null
To start, DC’s core is a diamond. It’s not square. The neighborhoods included in DC’s urban core have a mix of multifamily units and row houses. Since you believe DC’s urban core should not include certain neighborhoods, name the neighborhoods you think aren’t part of DC’s urban core. Unlike a city like Baltimore or Philly, DC has a lot of apartment buildings at all different heights within urban core neighborhoods. In the diamond I created, which neighborhoods should not be included?
I included all the neighborhoods in your diamond and it still only comes out to 11.7 sq/mi and that includes several neighborhoods that are almost exclusively row homes (Capital Heights, Bloomingdale, Stanton Park, Truxton Circle etc..)
I could have included everything to RKF stadium and it still only comes out to a shade over ~17 sq/mi
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
The argument I’ve made before about cities like Baltimore and Philly that are flat with rowhouse neighborhoods that are never ending is if you’re including those neighborhoods, what do you exclude? We need a definition of what a neighborhood should have to be part of the urban core. Also, what proximity should it have? The only neighborhood in DC that I included with mainly rowhouses that is flat similar to Baltimore and Philly neighborhoods is Capitol Hill, but I included that neighborhood because of its proximity to Downtown DC. What is your justification for including flat rowhouse neighborhoods that don’t touch Downtown Baltimore?
It's called function over form. Philly & Baltimore's rowhouse neighborhoods aren't copy and paste duplicates of each other any more than DC's high-rise neighborhoods are.
Federal Hill or Fishtown are no less "urban core" than Dupont Circle despite their lack of 12 story buildings for the same reason DT Baltimore or Center City are no more "urban core" than downtown DC because they have multiple +150m buildings.
I included all the neighborhoods in your diamond and it still only comes out to 11.7 sq/mi and that includes several neighborhoods that are almost exclusively row homes (Capital Heights, Bloomingdale, Stanton Park, Truxton Circle etc..)
I could have included everything to RKF stadium and it still only comes out to a shade over ~17 sq/mi
You cut out Union Market, Bryant Street/Rhode Island Avenue, and McMillion to the east. You cut out Georgia Avenue Metro Station/Petworth and Mt. Pleasant to the north. If you think those aren’t in the urban core, I don’t know what to tell you.
If you think this isn’t part of the DC urban core, what do you think is the urban core? What should the neighborhood look like?
You cut out Union Market, Eckington/Bryant Street Redevelopment, McMillion Redevelopment to the east. You cut our Georgia Avenue and Mt. Pleasant to the north. If you think those aren’t in the urban core, I don’t know what to tell you.
If we are just aimlessly gerrymandering "look?! highrises = urban core" than the whole 5 1/2 mile long stretch of cityscape from Guilford to Port Covington in Baltimore needs to be "urban core" as should North Central, University Heights, Spring Garden, Franklintown, Northern Liberty, etc be included in Philly's.
If we are just aimlessly gerrymandering "look?! highrises = urban core" than the whole 5 1/2 mile long stretch of cityscape from Guilford to Port Covington in Baltimore needs to be "urban core" as should North Central, University Heights, Spring Garden, Franklin Town, Northern Liberty, etc be included in Philly's.
Sir, these neighborhoods are seamless. You say you’re from the area, yet you don’t know this? Have you been to NOMA or Union Market? Have you walked or rode your bike up Georgia Avenue to the metro station from Downtown DC? How could you think those aren’t connected?
I mean, just look at the vibrancy in DC core neighborhoods compared to the neighborhoods you’re talking about.
Sir, these neighborhoods are seamless. You say you’re from the area, yet you don’t know this? Have you been to NOMA or Union Market? Have you walked or rode your bike up Georgia Avenue to the metro station from Downtown DC? How could you think those aren’t connected?
Buzzard Point & Navy Yards.... divided by a little road called 695.... are seamlessly integrated/connected to DuPont or Adams Morgan? Interesting take
We can play this silly game all day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
I mean, just look at the vibrancy in DC core neighborhoods compared to the neighborhoods you’re talking about.
So we are moving the goal post now? Function =/= vibrancy
By that logic nothing in DC is core neighborhood if we are using Manhattan as bar for vibrancy.
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