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No, you started showing your lack of knowledge of what DC looks like in 2023 and you tried it! I mean, the fact that you said Union Market is not part of the DC urban core shows you have no credibility to speak on this subject.
Well considering I don't live in the city anymore, sure?
I didn't try anything. I simply stated facts and you got bent out of shape because it didn't fit your definition of "core" DC is.
Well considering I don't live in the city anymore, sure?
I didn't try anything. I simply stated facts and you got bent out of shape because it didn't fit your definition of "core" DC is.
We all have different definitions of what constitutes urban core DC. It’s an ever increasing area because DC builds outward instead of upward like most cities.
Been in Philly 3 times in last 2 years for 4 days and explored the city. Stayed Center City each time.
As an "urbanist city lover" Philly neighborhoods are amazing and some of the most dense I have ever seen i the US. Some streets literally look like alleyways with homes on them
Also as a rabid sports fan, Chicago sports(I am a huge fan) are far inferior to Philly teams and fans. We put up with mediocracy or just flat out bad when Philly does not.
That said for downtown areas, Philly still leaves me with a lot to be desired. Yes there are skyscrapers and it blows away most American downtowns, but NYC, Chicago, and San Fran are just world class and I honestly dont find it that way.
Obviously could be wrong, just my opinion.
LA downtown is awful, but L.A. with the entertainment industry, natural beauty, is just far more world class than a city like Chicago.
I think you're using "world class" slightly differently than most people who bandy that term about do.
Your inclusion of LA in your quadrivium leads me to conclude that by "world class" you mean "cities that have a significant impact on global (culture, finance, business)" — though your reference to the scenery also indicates you use it in the other sense.
I agree with you that Philadelphia is definitely not that.
But I usually hear the phrase used to mean "on par with the best the world has to offer."
And I would say that in some respects, Philadelphia does clear that bar. I mentioned two in my prior response.
Hell, I'd say my hometown's art museum (one of the 20 best in the country) might even qualify.
Now, on the (finance-and-trade-biased) Globalization and World Cities hierarchy, Philadelphia is Beta class while New York is Alpha++ (a class that contains only one other city: London), LA and Chicago are Alpha and San Francisco and Boston Alpha-. But the Beta group of cities do have some international significance: note that Washington is Beta+.
(Here's the taxonomy of the GaWC hierarchy. GaWC considers all the cities in the Greek-letter categories "world cities", with the difference among the groups being how they connect to the world economy.)
Edited to add one more comment: By American standards, some of Philly's residential streets are alleys with houses on them. One of them, the oldest continuously occupied residential street in the country, even has that as its designator (Elfreth's Alley). In some neighborhoods, you can find pedestrian-only lanes that are even narrower and lined with houses; those areas give this city a European feel I haven't run across in any other American city yet.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 08-13-2023 at 08:20 PM..
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8,128 posts, read 7,560,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
"Center City" – the historic city core of Philadelphia – has very clearly agreed-upon boundaries, based on the borders of the pre-consolidation municipalities that made up Philadelphia County. They're the borders of the 1682 Town/1701 City of Philadelphia: Vine Street on the north, South Street on the south, and the two rivers on the east and west.
Everything north of it, including Spring Garden, is technically "North Philadelphia," and everything south of it is technically "South Philadelphia". West of it is West Philadelphia, whose eastern tip is generally known as "University City" now. East of it is Camden.
As redevelopment spread outward from the core, the neighborhoods immediately adjacent to Center City began to be regarded as extensions of the core. This would take the enlarged core north to Fairmount Avenue and south to Washington Avenue. Because these boundaries split ZIP codes, and in some cases neighborhoods, the Center City District puts the northern boundary of the extended core at Girard Avenue and the southern border at Tasker Street.
The two next-door-neighbor universities that give U-City its name had been generating their own redevelopment, and in the 1990s, that spread to the vicinity of the intercity train station at 30th and Market. As the office district also spread westward, U-City and Center City have grown towards each other, and West Philadelphia east of 40th Street (to take in all of both the Penn and Drexel campuses) and south of the Main Line railroad tracks could now be considered an extension of the core.
This sounds pretty fair. I personally would include U-City as part of the "core" if we're speaking on building sizes and build out. West of that I just see as West Philly. It's a pretty subjective overall for most of us draw up the lines of what's an actual city "core" much like in what is being discussed about with DC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
I think we can realistically say Georgia Avenue Metro Station is the northern most boundary of DC’s urban core. Draw a line southwest to Georgetown from there which includes Columbia Heights/Mount Pleasant/Adams Morgan. Draw a line southeast which includes the McMillian Redevelopment, Eckington/Bryant Street Redevelopment/Union Market/Trinidad and ends at the RFK campus. The southern boundary is the Potomac River and Anacostia River. If you don’t agree with that, what would you exclude? That is the 20 sq. miles I always reference when talking about DC’s urban core. I’ve been using this definition for years on city-data.com because that is the development zone.
On a side note about the RFK campus, can we all stand up and give everyone involved a standing ovation for finally getting this deal done. Navy Yard 2.0 is finally coming to the 190 acre RFK campus. Another DC waterfront neighborhood of highrises and restaurants on the water deserves some excitement!
I guess it depends on what's agreed to as what defines the core, as in the case of all cities. The topic of an "urban core" of a city is super subjective. That's a broad base you've described. That's almost like calling the LA Basin the "core" of Los Angeles. I think a city's core should normally not take up more than roughly 10-15% of it's land area, but is hella developed. Let's also remember that DC unlike most compact major US cities is very nodal. You're absolutely right about what the redevelopment of the RFK site will add to DC East of Downtown. This will add an entire new development node in the city proper, and after that will likely be Poplar Point. The McMillan redevelopment is just now being built, and there's also tons of development planned for HU Hospital redevelopment and other things along GA Ave, but the further you go above HU campus I would just call that urban parts of Uptown, rather than "core".
My current definition of DC's "core" would probably hone in on parts of the city where building heights stay above a certain level, and development doesn't drop down to neighborhood rowhomes. I understand the contiguity of urbanity throughout the base you've just explained, but I look at core as when the city changes from mostly office, or taller hotels to residential that you're leaving the core. Of course there can be rowhomes sprinkled in the urban core, but I'm referring to dominating the streets housing stock rather than taller buildings (at least for DC).
I guess it depends on what's agreed to as what defines the core, as in the case of all cities. The topic of an "urban core" of a city is super subjective. That's a broad base you've described. That's almost like calling the LA Basin the "core" of Los Angeles. I think a city's core should normally not take up more than roughly 10-15% of it's land area, but is hella developed. Let's also remember that DC unlike most compact major US cities is very nodal. You're absolutely right about what the redevelopment of the RFK site will add to DC East of Downtown. This will add an entire new development node in the city proper, and after that will likely be Poplar Point. The McMillan redevelopment is just now being built, and there's also tons of development planned for HU Hospital redevelopment and other things along GA Ave, but the further you go above HU campus I would just call that urban parts of Uptown, rather than "core".
My current definition of DC's "core" would probably hone in on parts of the city where building heights stay above a certain level, and development doesn't drop down to neighborhood rowhomes. I understand the contiguity of urbanity throughout the base you've just explained, but I look at core as when the city changes from mostly office, or taller hotels to residential that you're leaving the core. Of course there can be rowhomes sprinkled in the urban core, but I'm referring to dominating the streets housing stock rather than taller buildings (at least for DC).
It sounds like you’re describing downtown versus urban core. The urban core usually does include residential only neighborhoods. I would say the urban core stops when neighborhoods become mostly single family homes whether attached or detached. Maybe a neighborhood here or there of rowhouses can be included if it also has multifamily apartments or condos. With this definition, the only neighborhood that would have to be removed is Capitol Hill. All of the others have an even mix of both.
How do you create an apples to apples definition for all cities though?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
It sounds like you’re describing downtown versus urban core. The urban core usually does include residential only neighborhoods. I would say the urban core stops when neighborhoods become mostly single family homes whether attached or detached. Maybe a neighborhood here or there of rowhouses can be included if it also has multifamily apartments or condos. With this definition, the only neighborhood that would have to be removed is Capitol Hill. All of the others have an even mix of both.
How do you create an apples to apples definition for all cities though?
No I'm going beyond downtown, and you're right that it doesn't have to include office. For DC typically it's a mix of uses even as you get outside of downtown. The 6.9 sq mi definition boundary that Joakim drew up expanded well beyond downtown northward all the way to U street and across to Eckington and included everything South of that. I think he missed Union Market initially which should be included, but from there the rest of his definition ran South to include NOMA and then all the way down to Anacostia waterfront, following the river around to include as the Western boundary everything East of the Potomac up to the Kennedy Center then circling back to include the West End and every thing East of there. I agree with this as an inner "core".
There are mixed use neighborhoods with condo/apartments and rowhomes yes. This is seen throughout residential portions of the city, but tbh for DC at least I think there's three levels to it. The" Downtown", and a urban core "inner band". Then a urban core "outer band" that would be the grandeur definition you described all the way up through Columbia Heights, GA/Petworth, McMillian, then Eastward over to include Capitol Hill, and eventually the new RFK redevelopment and everything below Benning Rd bounded by the Anacostia to the South and East. That to me is the most generous definition possible. Much of this is subjective we're discussing, and agreed it's very had to place a similar definition on every city.
Last edited by the resident09; 08-14-2023 at 06:32 AM..
No I'm going beyond downtown, and you're right that it doesn't have to include office. For DC typically it's a mix of uses even as you get outside of downtown. The 6.9 sq mi definition boundary that Joakim drew up expanded well beyond downtown northward all the way to U street and across to Eckington and included everything South of that. I think he missed Union Market initially which should be included, but from there the rest of his definition ran South to include NOMA and then all the way down to Anacostia waterfront, following the river around to include as the Western boundary everything East of the Potomac up to the Kennedy Center then circling back to include the West End and every thing East of there. I agree with this as an inner "core".
There are mixed use neighborhoods with condo/apartments and rowhomes yes, this is seen throughout residential portions of the city, but tbh for DC at least I think there's three levels to it. The" Downtown", an urban core "inner band", then a urban core "outer band" that would be the grandeur definition you described all the way up through Columbia Heights, GA/Petworth, McMillian, then Eastward over to include Capitol Hill, and eventually the new RFK redevelopment and everything below Benning Rd bounded by the Anacostia to the South and East. That to me is the most generous definition possible.
The urban core Joakim drew was 11.6 sq. miles when he excluded Union Market, not 6.9 sq. miles. To fit downtown DC and Navy Yard together within 6.9 sq. miles you have to cut out Georgetown, Columbia Heights, Adams Morgan, Shaw, U Street, Capitol Hill, Logan Circle, and Dupont Circle while keeping Union Market out still. It’s just too massive a footprint.
I think we could use your rings, but the definition would have to change. Downtown DC would be everything south of Massachusetts Avenue NW/New York Ave NW. The western border would be Rock Creek Park to the west and the eastern border would be 6th Street NE to the East. The southern border would be Navy Yard/Buzzard Point/SW Waterfront which has a natural boundary of the Potomac and Anacostia Rivers. That would be downtown.
All the neighborhoods north of the area described above could be part of the inner urban core. These definitions would lay these areas out by development pattern with downtown DC described above being almost exclusively high-rise buildings with very few rowhouses.
That’s the only way to make this fair and could be used as a definition for all other cities allowing an apples to apples comparison of downtown, inner urban core, and outer urban core.
Last edited by MDAllstar; 08-14-2023 at 06:40 AM..
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,560,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
The urban core Joakim drew was 11.6 sq. miles when he excluded Union Market, not 6.9 sq. miles. To fit downtown DC and Navy Yard together within 6.9 sq. miles you have to cut out Georgetown, Columbia Heights, Adams Morgan, Shaw, U Street, Capitol Hill, Logan Circle, and Dupont Circle while keeping Union Market out still. It’s just too massive a footprint.
I think we could use your rings, but the definition would have to change. Downtown DC would be everything south of Massachusetts Avenue and New York Avenue to Rock Creek Park to the west and 6th Street NE to the East. The southern border would be Navy Yard/Buzzard Point/SW Waterfront.
I'm referring to the original one he created in post #479. Actually now looking at it, the boundary was 6.24 sq mi. That boundary was missing Union Market, and arguably could include Columbia Heights/Adams Morgan, but there has to be a northern boundary. Like I said it's a pretty subjective topic, which is why I'd just refer to an inner and outer urban core that is not part of Downtown, but also more urban than the edges of the city.
Everything South of U street was already a part of his definition. So that automatically includes Shaw, Logan, and Dupont. The line could probably drawn a bit higher than U street and I'd have no qualms with that.
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