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I can make an educated guess that since nyc gets the most international tourist, that it gets the most europeans aswell
I can make an educated guess that while that paticular forum favors arizona and nevada(lol) There are much more that would prefer new york. Also statistics speak louder anyway.
And your right no need for insults. I apologize
I never said it doesn't get the most tourists. I disagreed with a previous statement about how Europeans ONLY want to go to NYC. This is just not true, and many Europeans will go other places in the US before ever going to New York.
I actually said California, Arizona and Nevada. Meaning that it is extremely common for Europeans to rent a car and travel around these areas, hitting up national parks, Vegas and the large cities in California. This is by far the most common first "America" vacation where I live.
Thank you for the apology, I appreciate it. Edit - Glad I quoted you before you showed your lack of maturity.
I never said it doesn't get the most tourists. I disagreed with a previous statement about how Europeans ONLY want to go to NYC. This is just not true, and many Europeans will go other places in the US before ever going to New York.
I actually said California, Arizona and Nevada. Meaning that it is extremely common for Europeans to rent a car and travel around these areas, hitting up national parks, Vegas and the large cities in California. This is by far the most common first "America" vacation where I live.
Thank you for the apology, I appreciate it. Edit - Glad I quoted you before you showed your lack of maturity.
Well if there was a point where someone said "only" than yea your right. With me it was never about only acknowledging new york, it was people owning up to the fact that new york got the most and had the biggest influence abroad
It was the fact that u said arizona and neveda at all(i assume excluding vegas, as the norm is too just say las vegas not nevada) Anyway i have a hard time believing europeans would fly over new york, to experience arizona, on their first time
The jk was placed to indicate that i was just kidding about the smile. Not about the apology.
Well if there was a point where someone said "only" than yea your right. With me it was never about only acknowledging new york, it was people owning up to the fact that new york got the most and had the biggest influence abroad
It was the fact that u said arizona and neveda at all(i assume excluding vegas, as the norm is too just say las vegas not nevada) Anyway i have a hard time believing europeans would fly over new york, to experience arizona, on their first time
The jk was placed to indicate that i was just kidding about the smile. Not about the apology.
Yes, someone actually did say that. And, I never argued that NYC does not have the biggest influence abroad. But it is not the ONLY city on their minds - the same person said this as well.
It's okay if you don't believe it. But then again, how many Europeans are you close to? How many do you talk to every day? I included Arizona and Nevada because these states are usually included with a trip to California. They want to see the Grand Canyon, Vegas, and drive in the wide open spaces (that are difficult to find in Europe). I'm not sure what else I can say. This has been my experience, and considering I live here - I do believe I know what I'm talking about.
Hard to believe. If anything i think your just trying to be differant or difficult, whatever either one or both and its annoying. Whenever someone says something about nycs influence abroad you always come in and state the contrary. If anything NYC is as american as it gets, whjat more american than new york?
I have heard that many foreign tourists, particularly Japanese, want to see "Indians" when they're in America. Their countries don't have American Indians, granted that isn't true of tourists from the Americas, outside of maybe a few ex-patriates.
I know this because some American Indians have told me complaining stories of foreign tourists treating them like rare/weird things or museum pieces.
Yes, someone actually did say that. And, I never argued that NYC does not have the biggest influence abroad. But it is not the ONLY city on their minds - the same person said this as well.
It's okay if you don't believe it. But then again, how many Europeans are you close to? How many do you talk to every day? I included Arizona and Nevada because these states are usually included with a trip to California. They want to see the Grand Canyon, Vegas, and drive in the wide open spaces (that are difficult to find in Europe). I'm not sure what else I can say. This has been my experience, and considering I live here - I do believe I know what I'm talking about.
Well, Annie it was me and oif course saying "ONLY" its a generalization as there as are some who would prefer Florida (a lot of Germans there) and some who prefere country western experience. But from my experience talking to Europeans they pretty much know that the US outside of big cities is boring suburbia with shopping malls and single family houses. They also know that New York has been challenging London and Paris
for being a cultural celnter of the world which can't be said of any other US city. You may dispute whatever you want but New York's art market is the largest in the US and some say in the world. This is a global village world and the European I spoke to new about Carnegie Hall, Metropolitan, Broadway or galleries of Soho and had a lot of respect for those institutions. Again, not so much about any other city in the US with an exception of Hollywood film business. That respect translates into a desire to experience those things first hand hence the number of tourists that vistis New York every year.
Not trying to start an argument, because I really enjoy reading your posts - but, this is really not accurate. I'm not sure what "foreigners" you are referring to, but this has definitely not been my experience.
I'm referring to most foreigners, particularly those who have never been to the US and want to visit. Their minds are filled mostly with images of NYC and L.A., and those are the places they will typically visit first.
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Originally Posted by Annie28
The people I talk to (who have mostly already been to NYC and the west coast), always mention wanting to see the "real America." Many of them rent caravans and drive across the entire US, enjoying those places (like Branson,MO) that are SO different from what they are used to. I guess it gives them better stories to tell when they get home.
So, the people you talk to "have mostly already been to NYC and the west coast." You are saying it, yourself. Why do you suppose they've "already been to NYC and the west coast" and NOW they want to caravan across the US? Why didn't they do that to begin with?
Because their initial trips were to NYC and/or L.A. That's why.
And you're going by your experience with people that you admit have already been to the US. Foreigners who have NEVER been to the US are going to usually choose NYC for their first trip - it's the #1 destination for international visitors to the US. Why is that so hard to believe? Come to NY any day, go to Times Square, and walk around for a few hours, and notice how many people are speaking German, French, Dutch, Japanese, Russian, Arabic, Italian, and other languages, and you'll see that it's most of them. That's not even counting the English-speaking Brits and the Spanish speakers (most of whom very well may be Americans).
It's not nearly as many foreigners who drive across the US as visit NYC and L.A. That's your opinion based on your limited experiences, and even then you inadvertently admitted that the foreigners that you know who want to drive across the US have "mostly been to NYC and the west coast" FIRST. So, you inadvertently helped to prove my point.
My experience with people from overseas, including my own parents and their families, who immigrated to the US, is that their perception of the US is mostly NYC and Hollywood. They also know about Florida (and think of it as being almost all "Disney" and now most of them also know about Las Vegas. That's it. That's their image of the US.
NY and L.A. are the centers of the world. How can there be more than one center? There just are.
I'm referring to most foreigners, particularly those who have never been to the US and want to visit. Their minds are filled mostly with images of NYC and L.A., and those are the places they will typically visit first.
So, the people you talk to "have mostly already been to NYC and the west coast." You are saying it, yourself. Why do you suppose they've "already been to NYC and the west coast" and NOW they want to caravan across the US? Why didn't they do that to begin with?
Because their initial trips were to NYC and/or L.A. That's why.
And you're going by your experience with people that you admit have already been to the US. Foreigners who have NEVER been to the US are going to usually choose NYC for their first trip - it's the #1 destination for international visitors to the US. Why is that so hard to believe? Come to NY any day, go to Times Square, and walk around for a few hours, and notice how many people are speaking German, French, Dutch, Japanese, Russian, Arabic, Italian, and other languages, and you'll see that it's most of them. That's not even counting the English-speaking Brits and the Spanish speakers (most of whom very well may be Americans).
It's not nearly as many foreigners who drive across the US as visit NYC and L.A. That's your opinion based on your limited experiences, and even then you inadvertently admitted that the foreigners that you know who want to drive across the US have "mostly been to NYC and the west coast" FIRST. So, you inadvertently helped to prove my point.
My experience with people from overseas, including my own parents and their families, who immigrated to the US, is that their perception of the US is mostly NYC and Hollywood. They also know about Florida (and think of it as being almost all "Disney" and now most of them also know about Las Vegas. That's it. That's their image of the US.
NY and L.A. are the centers of the world. How can there be more than one center? There just are.
I'm helping to prove your point? No, I am proving my point (again) that people do not ONLY want to visit NYC, which is why I responded in the thread in the first place. Also, please find where I said it wasn't the #1 most visited destination. I simply said it was not always the #1 choice for a lot of Europeans on their first trip to America, and I stand by that opinion.
Also, I would not really consider my experience to be limited. Considering I have lived abroad for almost a decade and every single member of my family (husband included) is European. I also hold British and Dutch citizenship. Limited? Hmm, no.
Los Angeles, as I said several times earlier, is the other "center of the world". It's the only place I've been to that feels self-sufficient and I don't hear about NYC most days. By the way - I was right, you are a transplant. I can usually spot them a mile away.
That's great since transplants make up a majority of NYC. Just as good that you're obviously from the NYC metro. Funny how our positions differ on the expected lines. You're missing the point though--there is no "the center." You're trying to say there are two centers which immediately contradicts one city being "the center" in the first place.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
Which is why I also talked about American influence on the rest of the world. I guess your experience in Edmonton was different. I'll probably be going again this fall, Oct-Nov., and I usually go for 4 weeks or so. I find it hard to believe that people who talked to you, knowing you're from NY, didn't just talk your ear off about it like they do with me, and I'm not even from the city itself. The other place they always talk to me about is Vegas; for some reason, lots of Albertans love Vegas. I'm guessing it's a relatively short flight, cheap vacation.
You're surprised that them knowing you're from New York will lead to constant talk about New York? I understand NYC will probably come up more often in a random conversation than any other American city (though I feel California as a whole will be mentioned far more often), but this is not random. It was not by random chance people asked me about Los Angeles and California (and America in general) in Shanghai and Hangzhou when they found out I was from there. It is not by random chance people constantly asked about Shanghai and China (not so much Hangzhou) when I headed to Taipei, and then later, Portland upon finding out I had just been there. It's a common basis to talk about things especially if you don't know too many other details about someone.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
American culture is purveyed by the industries out of NYC and L.A. The music, television, motion picture, and to a lesser extent entertainment and news industries are based in those two major American cities. On top of that, the major agencies in the advertising and PR industry, which sell all of this for those other industries, are located in NYC primarily as well as in L.A.
American culture is not driven by Omaha, Dallas, Memphis, Cheyenne, Salt Lake City, etc... it is driven by the trends set in New York and Hollywood. It then spreads to the rest of the USA, and to the rest of the world. If you don't realize that, then you must have your head in the sand.
There's no failure to realize this--American media is powerful with most traditional outlets based in NYC, film and television based in LA, new media in the Bay Area, and publishing and journalism spread a bit more in NYC, DC, SF, and Chicago. These are certainly the main hubs for distribution despite talent and ideas being drawn from all over. Of course, this means a fair bit less once you go to another country and realize most prosperous countries have very strong domestic industries that have a much stronger showing than anything from the States. I have lived--as an actually lived, wandered around, worked, made friends, discussed and argued in the native language, taught, and watched and enjoyed the media in three East Asian countries. Let me tell you that even in the most Westernized of them all (I feel Taiwan gets this mantle), local and regional media absolutely swamps American media.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
English's influence on the world is mostly due to the USA's marketing of its culture to the rest of the world. As I pointed out before, that is done through NYC and Hollywood. Ask people in other parts of the world where in the USA they would like to go and they'll tell you NY, then L.A., and then maybe Vegas and Florida. Ask them what they want to see in the USA and they will give the things found in NY mostly - Statue of Liberty, Brooklyn Bridge, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Times Square, etc.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
The world's perception of "America" and "American" is tied to what they know from our media, which forces primarily images of all sorts from NY and L.A. onto them. What foreigners want to go to Branson, MO? Or to the Jersey Shore? They don't want "America" as we know it, they want "America" as they know it from what Madison Ave and Hollywood Blvd. taught them. Tell a Brit about the "Jersey Shore" and he'll have no clue, but tell him about Santa Monica and he'll know.
I'll agree that many of them would have very little clue about Branson or the Jersey Shore. However, there is a vague and all-encompassing "American" ideal that has little specific to NY or LA. It's when you find yourself packed in a concert venue, absolutely packed, with a bunch of Parisians because the night's performance is basically a Southern spiritual hymns that you get this idea. Or a former girlfriend who got a fellowship to Germany in order to study a huge subculture of people who dress up in beads, feathers, and headdresses, live in tipis, and sing and dance and chant in the bizarre Native American subculture there. Open highways, big cars and appliances, endless plains and cornfields, towering mountains, deep canyons, lush evergreen forests, incredible ethnic diversity, the guns, the deserts, hodowns, gospel choirs, etc. are rolled up into one rambling idea of America that foreigners have of this country without naming names. This is not the work of NYC, but the work of nation--even if NYC and LA produce much of the media broadcasting these things to the world.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
By the way, while "Borat" is the creation of a British actor, it is still a Hollywood - American - production. It was produced by 20th Century Fox which is one of the big 6 American movie production companies. Nice try, though.
I'm not denyng its an American production company. Sure, I guess it can be as much an American movie since it's produced by an American company (which then makes a lot of Asian art house films actually part German, part French films since they are so often produced by German and French companies)--sure, it's true in some sense. However, it was based on a character developed through British television and written, directed, and starring a Brit--though I'd probably be one of the last to downplay the importance of money in film production.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
OK, so you want to quibble over "center of the world"... Well, it's just some topic on an internet forum. Everyone will have a slightly different take on just precisely what is meant by "center of the world". That means that this is somewhat subjective.
Rather than dwell on that detail, I'm just going by what the general perception seems to be. Just looking at the other thread (that you left for some odd reason) it is clear that more people do concur with the idea that NY is the "center of the world" than those who don't agree with that. That's a reflection of the common perception. There is a reason NYC is the #1 tourist destination in the world, and it can be explained somewhat as "all roads lead to Rome." Yes, NYC is the modern Rome, a concept which you apparently eschew, but it's true.
You don't want to dwell on the detail, yet you'll take umbrage at people actually giving their definition of what a center should mean, and how it is different from being an (or even the most) important city? It's fine by me if you want to argue, but some of your points (even when you're working under the definition of "the center" meaning "the most important city") are sometimes lacking or misguided. And no, I have no problem with NYC being a modern Rome since Rome itself was never the center of the world. If you know your world history, you'll find that Rome, even in its heyday, had strong states near and far as contemporaries. The way Rome was not the center of the world is similar to how NYC is not the center of the world. The way that few Romans would know otherwise is similar to the way New Yorkers would know otherwise. I have already stated as much.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
NYC has the largest mix of those things. In terms of finance, Wall St. is at the forefront of American economics, and the US is still at the forefront of global economics.
Yes, but neither Wall St nor the US actually make up anything near the majority power in the global economy. It has a significant, though slipping, plurality (unless you include the EU as one unit), and that is why it is not the center of the world.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
Today, the battle for control and influence is waged through culture and capitalism. You, like many others, believe the idea that the USA's power comes from our political and/or military prowess, and that's not true at all. It's not as Toby Keith sings:
"And you'll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
'Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way"
No, that's not the American way. The American way is to advertise the boot, and convince you that you need it, and then sell it to you. Our nation's strength is capitalism. Selling. Fabricating "needs". You "need" this boot, here are some movies and music videos proving you need it, you need to buy it from us. Sure, we'll pay China to make the boot, but we'll sell it, we'll sell the movie that featured the boot, we'll partner the movie with Burger King to sell toys about the movie about the boot, etc. etc. etc... THAT'S the American Way. Toby Keith, and the masses who think like him, like you, are wrong.
Sorry, I believe in American "soft power" is quite a bit more influential than "hard power." I'm not sure how you got the idea I thought like that or would even require a Toby Keith reference since I've consistently referred to world finance, trade, and media rather than the ability of the US or a handful of other nations to militarily dominate things. Hell, I'm not sure I once mentioned the military or "hard power" except here to respond to you saying that that's my position. Weird, isn't it? Also, have you walked the streets of an East Asian metropolis? The amount of ads you will see in a single day is almost impossible to believe--and more often than not, the products they're shilling are going to be domestic or a transnational corporation based in somewhere besides the US. Of course, the US and NYC has played a part in this, but it's gone way beyond "the American way."
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
Well, you haven't spent time there, and neither have I, but my college roommate did. He worked in Hong Kong for several years and routinely visited Beijing. China resists much American influence, but he said our movies are big there. Hong Kong, despite being handed over to China, operates much like it did under British control. He said it was almost like being in NY, but a little nicer and cleaner. He lived there after living in London for 4 years and living in NYC for the 6 years or so before that. It reminded him of NY, not London. He heard all about the US most days he was there.
Oh, goody. I spent over five years (non consecutive, but usually in large stretches of a year or so) in Manila, all of Taiwan (especially Taipei), Hong Kong, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Tokyo, Okinawa, and a host of smaller cities and regions within East Asia. I speak two of the languages and can understand at a very basic level another two--this is to say, I can actually participate in the media and talk to others in their native language (though maybe your friend could, too). I have family members in several of those places and I have family members within the Chinese diaspora around the world. I'm fairly tapped into what is usually important in the lives of my friends and family there.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
Funny you would bring up Bollywood....think about it - Bollywood. Bollywood is Mumbai, India. Why doesn't Hollywood, California call itself "Humbai"??? Think about it. Do you suppose it could have to do with Bollywood's acknowledgement that the entire Hindi film industry is built on the basis laid by Hollywood??? The same can be said of any nation's movie industry, as Hollywood laid the foundation. India, in particular, has a huge American influence due to the proliferation of American business which is outsourced there.
Oh yes, so a handy name for foreigners to use and coined for English-speakers back when the US was in a much stronger global position means that "the entire Hindi film industry is built on the basis laid by Hollywood." Sorry, but that's simply not true. I watch Bollywood films. I've WORKED on Bollywood films. I go to film forums and lectures on global cinema and actually had to study this stuff. Your claim is a huge exaggeration.
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Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
Spoken like a true hipster transplant. Are you upset because you were late to your hipster kickball league in Park Slope???
What's with you and hipsters? I'm going to have a pretty hard time fitting most definitions of hipsters or anyone in real life looking at me and thinking I'm a hipster. If anything, I've spent seven years, on and off, creating yuppies through standardized test tutoring. I have nothing against kickball or organized sports though--it's just that I could never commit to a timetable.
NYC does have the best transportation in the world. I never said the fact that it did somehow made it the center of transportation. I was arguing with oy who said it was unreliable which isnt true
I did mention all the ways NYC is good and bad--whether or not it's the best will depend on how you weight things and your personal habits. For many, NYC will certainly not be the best. And I said it was "more unreliable" (or "less reliable") than those of many other great systems around the world (in regards to the trains). I'm not going out on a limb here--this is simply the truth. It's fine most of the time, but the few times it does happen is incredibly annoying--though I'm somewhat numb to it since I no longer regard the constant changing of scheduled service as long as it's posted in advance to be abnormal.
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) There are much more that would prefer new york. Also statistics speak louder anyway.
