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i wholeheartedly disagree, and i also have doubts about your ever living in st. louis, since this is the first time you have ever mentioned that noteworthy tidbit. there is really nothing in cleveland that you could say blows st. louis out of the water. nothing. there is really no clear winner in this matchup unless hometown bias is the deciding factor. the two cities are so comparable, it comes down to a tit-for-tat comparison.
you don't know that, because you are a loyal advocate of your hometown.
as a philadelphia native familiar with both cities, i give the edge to st. louis.
1. A Great Lake
2. Cleveland Clinic
3. West Side Market
4. Little Italy
5. Cleveland Orchestra
All of these blow the St. Louis version out of the water. You may think that St. Louis can match these amenities; it cannot.
5. Lafayette Square (one of the largest collections of Victorian homes in the country)
6. City Museum (don't try Cleveland has no equivalent)
7. Beer Scene (10 microbreweries in St. Louis City and 11 more in the surronding suburbs plus 4 distilleries).
Point I'm making each city has unique standouts, so stop pretending your living in 1950's Cleveland. Each city is amazing, misunderstood and overlooked and each city has amazing cultural institutions and neighborhoods.
i'll echo masterwood. there is nothing, i repeat, nothing, in cleveland that blows anything in st. louis out of the water. both cities have great italian neighborhoods, both have excellent medical and educational institutions, both have interesting neighborhoods, both have impressive museums and institutions. saying one "obviously" outdoes the other is just ridiculous.
i'll echo masterwood. there is nothing, i repeat, nothing, in cleveland that blows anything in st. louis out of the water. both cities have great italian neighborhoods, both have excellent medical and educational institutions, both have interesting neighborhoods, both have impressive museums and institutions. saying one "obviously" outdoes the other is just ridiculous.
I am more familiar with Cleveland and I still have a soft spot for it as I spent a few years there in my youth. But it seems to me that St Louis is a more impressive city. More history, better architecture, better sports teams (at least at the moment). The gap is not huge though.
Cleveland does have a good museum and arts scene - Cleveland Orchestra (top 10 in the world), Museum of Art, R&R Hall of Fame and Playhouse Square. But there is not much else to shout about.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzrovian
I am more familiar with Cleveland and I still have a soft spot for it as I spent a few years there in my youth. But it seems to me that St Louis is a more impressive city. More history, better architecture, better sports teams (at least at the moment). The gap is not huge though.
Cleveland does have a good museum and arts scene - Cleveland Orchestra (top 10 in the world), Museum of Art, R&R Hall of Fame and Playhouse Square. But there is not much else to shout about.
Boy....I'm not as sure as you are, and I've lived in both cities (however, it's been SOME TIME since I've been in STL). Architecturally anyways, I don't think STL is more impressive at all, in fact, I think Cleveland has a clearer edge there. JMO, obviously. As far as which is better: that's difficult to say -- they are so even in so many ways. True sister cities!
2. West Side Market meet Soulard Farmers market (oldest outdoor market in the U.S.) and built 20yrs before Cleveland even was founded.
Odd that Soulard Farmers Market, which I've never heard of, doesn't show up on this list of best public markets while West Side Market, which is listed on the National Register of Historic Places and was named by Food Network as America's best food lovers market, does: West Side Market in Cleveland, Ohio - America's Best Public Markets Slideshow at Frommer's
3. Little Italy meet St. Louis's The Hill
The Hill is fine, but I'll go with Little Italy. Not to mention the myriad other Italian bakeries and delis around Cleveland.
4. Cleveland Orchestra meet St. Louis Symphony Orchestra (2nd Oldest Symphony)
Both Cleveland's and St. Louis' zoos are fine. And luckily for Cleveland, it's in the same state as two of the Top 10 zoos in America (Cincinnati and Columbus)
3. Forest Park one of the greatest urban parks and has 19 million vistors annually
Seriously? Every city in the eastern U.S. has a historic "skyscraper.
Here's Cleveland's, which was once the tallest building between New York City and Chicago: Redirect Notice
5. Lafayette Square (one of the largest collections of Victorian homes in the country)
Please, Cleveland is filled with charming Victorian architecture. Or perhaps you think Cleveland is in Arizona?
6. City Museum (don't try Cleveland has no equivalent)
Don't try? Then where should I put this Cleveland museum: http://rockhall.com/ ... Talk about having no equivalent.
7. Beer Scene (10 microbreweries in St. Louis City and 11 more in the surronding suburbs plus 4 distilleries).
Great Lakes Brewery says hello: Great Lakes Brewing Company: Homepage ... and there are plenty of other microbreweries. And, as you know with STL being home to the bilge water that is Bud Light and all - quantity does not equal quality when it comes to beer.
^ I dont claim to know much about Cleveland, I've only been through there a couple times, but I had to point out one thing. Cuyahoga Valley National Park is not comparable to Forest Park. It's pretty far outside the city, whereas Forest Park is in the middle of the city. It's a truly urban park, much like Central Park (no, I'm not trying to say that it's as good)
It has the zoo, science center, history museum, art museum, etc etc. Most of the stuff is free.
Cuyahoga Valley seems more like the numerous parks in the Ozarks outside of St. Louis. If you want to compare the wilderness outside of each city, I think St. Louis wins. Just compare topography maps and you'll see that there's very dramatic terrain outside of St. Louis, while the areas around Cuyahoga Valley seem flat in comparison.
I think St. Louis' proximity to the Ozarks is its best physical quality, not the Mississippi River as many people are trying to say. And personally, I'd rather live in the foothills of the Ozarks than next to a Great Lake, but that's just me. It's all personal preference, so let's stop acting like it's a fact that Cleveland has a better physical setting.
microbrew beer scene? just because st. louis is home to the largest brewery in the world doesn't meant that's the only game in town. For Beer, St. Louis Thinks Smaller - NYTimes.com. there's a huge microbrew scene in st. louis. when it comes to drinking beer, most other cities are amateurs compared to st. louis.
cleveland is known for its frame duckbill vernacular architecture, which isn't nearly as aesthetically appealing as the red brick that abounds all over st. louis. cleveland's downtown architecture is very beautiful, but much of its residential stock looks like it could just as easily be in any small town in ohio. st. louis was built to be grand, and it is a much, much older city than cleveland. case in point:
typical cleveland residential:
typical st. louis residential:
as i keep saying, the two cities are way too similar to say one is more impressive than the other. preference is subjective.
Dear abr7rmj,
Looks like you didn't grasp my point. I was showing you that nothing in Cleveland really blows anything out of the water. Cleveland is my second favorite city in the U.S. and I recognize it's greatness and beauty, but if you want to nit pick I'll play.
1. If you would look down your list you will see BJC Hospital in St. Louis is #11 although it's lower than the Cleveland Clinic at number #3 I was trying to make you realize that both cities have outstanding medical facilities. The St. Louis Children's Hospital is always mentioned in the top Childrens Hospitals in the Country.
2. Soulard Farmers market is a great farmers market. There is nothing you can't get at West Side Markert that you can't at Soulard Farmers Market.
3. St. Louis's the Hill (if you want to go by Food Network with West Side Market) was called America's 2nd Little Italy by Mario Balortelli, but you'll find someway to spin that in negatively.
4. Regarding Clevelands Orchestra if you would read my last paragraph you would have seen that I said stop living in the 1950's Cleveland cause the Orchestra isn't what it use to be. Back in the Day Cleveland did have a far superior Orchestra, but today I have a hard time believing your Orchestra Members are far superior to St. Louis's since St. Louis doesn't take Classical music lightly.
5. You really don't want a #4 Ranked Medical School cause you would rather have a #22 Ranked Medical School
6. Since Cleveland is in Ohio with two other ranked zoos that automatically puts Cleveland on top? Nice try but the St. Louis zoo is actually in the City of St. Louis and is in the top 3, while Cleveland is nowhere to be seen. Since Kansas City is in the same state with the best job market of the two I guess St. Louis's economy is better.
7. Once again you didn't read my post Cleveland Lakefront > St. Louis Riverfront. Forest Park > Than any park Cleveland has in it's city limits. Forest Park also have a plethora of outdoor activities, which many are free and definetly rivals your National Park and Lakefront.
8. Regarding the Wainwright Building I was just making a point about the ridiculousness of this thread.
9. Once again I'm not stupid I know geographically where Cleveland is, but can you provide a link with a neighborhood with as much beauty as Layafette Square? Also I know Cleveland has Victorian homes because once again making a point about the ridiculousness of this.
10. Did you even look at the link I provided for the City Museum cause Cleveland and any other city in this country has nothing equivalent to this. The Rock n Roll Hall of Fame is a musuem, the city museum is a mid-rise building full of reycled junk around St. Louis which is used as a playground for all ages in Downtown St. Louis.
11. That lists of Breweries didn't include the traitors AB-INBEV or there vengeful family memeber Kraftig so that would bring the total to 23 Breweries and yes it's not about quanity, but we have more quality in our craft breweries since we are a top 10 beer city for craft beer and Cleveland is nowhere in sight. Yes I'm familiar with Great Lakes and also Fat Head cause I've been to both, and I belong to the St. Louis Craft Beer community. The only cities that can beat St. Louis in Craft Beer are Portland, Denver, and San Diego.
Once again nothing in Cleveland or St. Louis blows anything away, but I know you will come back with something witty and try to spin Cleveland in a better light than St. Louis cause you have to be the Alpha male, which in turn you probably have self-esteem issues since you try and one up everbody on this thread, but If you are just doing this to get arise out of everybody it's working, which I'm having fun, and negate the first part of this paragraph
Last edited by masterwood89; 01-25-2012 at 07:19 AM..
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