Upper South vs Deep South.... (living, state, compared, place)
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Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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People who cry Mason-Dixon for Maryland seem to neglect the fact that the actual official line, the line that had the division of north and south in mind when it was drawn, is the Missouri compromise line. Which doesn't even include Kentucky or Virginia, so what chance has Maryland got?
The Mason Dixon was established to settle land disputes between Pennsylvania and Maryland. NOT to be the border of the south.
Yes there were southern traits in the state. Yes there are ties to the south historically. Yes there were some pro-confederate citizens. That's to be expected of a state that sits 'between' the south and the northeast. But the state is not of Dixie. There isn't even a star for it on the confederate flag.
Delaware has even LESS chance of being considered southern. Delaware was originally Pennsylvanian territory, is excluded even by the Mason Dixon line (look it up!), and you can practically swim to New Jersey from there.
I cannot consider Maryland or Delaware southern. Even if you call them Mid-Atlantic, go ahead and see what other states are called Mid-Atlantic. New Jersey, Pennsylvania, New York, and occasionally Virginia. Three out of four northern.
It actually refers to northern scum. It also implores Marylanders to not "let Virginia's call be in vain."
You're right, it's "Northern scum." Thanks for the correction.
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Originally Posted by annie_himself
Actually I'm a legal resident of Louisiana, not Texas. So, legally, Texas is not my state of residence.
Even if it was, I'm not a Texan.
Dude, let it go. You live in Texas. You know good and well what my point was, so why are you being so damn difficult about it?
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It can be below the MD line all it wants, it's not southern. You won't change my opinion in 100 years.
LOL, you sound like a birther or a person who doesn't believe dinosaurs exist. "Facts won't change my opinion!"
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Originally Posted by CookieSkoon
People who cry Mason-Dixon for Maryland seem to neglect the fact that the actual official line, the line that had the division of north and south in mind when it was drawn, is the Missouri compromise line. Which doesn't even include Kentucky or Virginia, so what chance has Maryland got?
Well I'm not sure who you're referring to here since I never referenced the Mason-Dixon line.
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Yes there were southern traits in the state. Yes there are ties to the south historically. Yes there were some pro-confederate citizens. That's to be expected of a state that sits 'between' the south and the northeast. But the state is not of Dixie. There isn't even a star for it on the confederate flag.
LOL, South Carolina--the first state to secede from the Union, that had the greatest percentage of slaves in its population, and where the Civil War began--doesn't have a star on its state flag for the Confederacy, so that obviously doesn't mean anything. Historically, the state was definitely considered Southern. Over the years with increasing urbanization and its closer proximity to the North than the major urban centers of the South, cultural shifts definitely occurred and on that basis I understand when someone says it's not "of the South" or culturally Southern in modern times, and I'd agree. But that doesn't change geography or history, which must be considered IMO. And even the culture hasn't completely changed.
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Delaware has even LESS chance of being considered southern. Delaware was originally Pennsylvanian territory, is excluded even by the Mason Dixon line (look it up!), and you can practically swim to New Jersey from there.
LOL, South Carolina--the first state to secede from the Union, that had the greatest percentage of slaves in its population, and where the Civil War began--doesn't have a star on its state flag for the Confederacy, so that obviously doesn't mean anything.
So? What other former Confederate state does either? Sorry, but with all due respect, this line of argument is hard to follow. However. South Carolina was obviously one of the original Confederate States (as was Texas), it DOES have a star on both the Confederate national and battle flags.
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Originally Posted by TexasReb
You have a certain point here, Mutiny77, but that works both ways as well. It is unfortunate that so many folks -- usually from the far southeastern states and along the Atlantic seabord -- need it explained to them. Or, better said, that so many base their opinions on what is or isn't the South upon some (in fact, fairly contemporary) notion that the South is synonymous with the southeast...or that a few select in the Deep South ("Deep South purists), presume an exclusive credentials to define the region based upon that criterion alone! Anyway, back to work for now! LOL
And the same point can be made for Maryland, which is what I'm getting at.
We could probably go with this until hell freezes over...which it probably will! LOL BUT...the major difference (just to name a primary one) is that according to the most extensive surveys ever done as to self-identified regional affliliation? A clear majority of residents of Texas, Virginia, Kentucky...even Florida...(all of which were members of the Confederacy) not only consider themselves to live in the South? But consider themselves to be "Southerners." I repeat, that IMHO, one of the best indicators of the lines of a region is where those who live there THINK of themselves as living there...and being self-identified with it.
As it concerns the South? Most Marylanders -- much less those in Delware -- do not see themselves as living in the South...and definitely do not think of themselves as Southerners. This is NOT a slam against Maryland...it is just a fact of socio-demographics and history. While Maryland (or at least parts of it) has historical/cultural traits that are strongly connected with the South and the characteristics of the same? It never really went all out for the South. It is debatable if it would have seceded...but no question that most Marylanders fought on the side of the Union. As a general rule, most residents sided with the North. And then the Reconstruction experience....
If nothing else, this clearly seperates Texas, Virginia, and Florida, from Maryland...in terms of a common Southern history and definition....
So? What other former Confederate state does either? Sorry, but with all due respect, this line of argument is hard to follow. However. South Carolina was obviously one of the original Confederate States (as was Texas), it DOES have a star on both the Confederate national and battle flags.
I misread his statement. He actually said that there's not a star on the Confederate flag for Maryland. Well there wasn't one for Kentucky either as it was also a Union slave state.
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We could probably go with this until hell freezes over...which it probably will! LOL BUT...the major difference (just to name a primary one) is that according to the most extensive surveys ever done as to self-identified regional affliliation? A clear majority of residents of Texas, Virginia, Kentucky...even Florida...(all of which were members of the Confederacy) not only consider themselves to live in the South? But consider themselves to be "Southerners." I repeat, that IMHO, one of the best indicators of the lines of a region is where those who live there THINK of themselves as living there...and being self-identified with it.
As it concerns the South? Most Marylanders -- much less those in Delware -- do not see themselves as living in the South...and definitely do not think of themselves as Southerners. This is NOT a slam against Maryland...it is just a fact of socio-demographics and history. While Maryland (or at least parts of it) has historical/cultural traits that are strongly connected with the South and the characteristics of the same? It never really went all out for the South. It is debatable if it would have seceded...but no question that most Marylanders fought on the side of the Union. As a general rule, most residents sided with the North. And then the Reconstruction experience....
If nothing else, this clearly seperates Texas, Virginia, and Florida, from Maryland...in terms of a common Southern history and definition....
The self-identification part I clearly understand. My contention is that cultural shifts don't change geography. If you could poll residents of south Florida, I'm pretty sure you'd get very similar numbers as for Maryland. Clearly what's happening all across the South and not just in border areas is that increasing urbanization since WWII is changing the definition of "Southern" which is something we haven't grappled with, so we'd just rather toss certain areas out of the region. At some point it will get ridiculous when South Carolina becomes highly urbanized, attracting many more migrants from other parts of the country and internationally, and then some people will also declare it to be non-Southern.
There was nothing to correct. I said Texas was your state of residence and you go off on a tirade about legalities and being "Texan" and whatnot. Wasn't germane to the discussion at all, but you knew that.
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The fact that it's below the MD or was once southern doesn't make it a southern state in present day. Get over it.
What you can't get through your skull is that "Southern" refers to geography as well as culture and the issue is nowhere near as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. I have no clue why you can't comprehend that. When north Florida follows the rest of Florida in terms of migration patterns and cultural shifts, I guess you'll also say that the southernmost state in the southeastern United States isn't a southern state anymore. Yeah, that will make complete sense in the absence of geographical considerations.
There was nothing to correct. I said Texas was your state of residence and you go off on a tirade about legalities and being "Texan" and whatnot. Wasn't germane to the discussion at all, but you knew that.
What you can't get through your skull is that "Southern" refers to geography as well as culture and the issue is nowhere near as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. I have no clue why you can't comprehend that. When north Florida follows the rest of Florida in terms of migration patterns and cultural shifts, I guess you'll also say that the southernmost state in the southeastern United States isn't a southern state anymore. Yeah, that will make complete sense in the absence of geographical considerations.
There was something to correct, so I did.
...I don't see your point here, Maryland is not southern. Florida has nothing to do with this but you knew that.
Culturally speaking SE Ohio and Southern Ohio could be considered the upper south. This is a stong southern appalchia area compared to even most parts of the country. During the war people most of these areas were considered strong copperheads (anti Union and southern sympathy). Heck, even up to the 1950 at a restraunt in a hotel in called the Neil House in Marietta, Ohio would not serve blacks unless it was on Thursday which was maids day off. This was the time my great grandparents were living and this was southern ohio not montgomery, alabama!
Speaking of Maryland and Delaware not being considered southern, im sorry but I think you have to consider some parts southern as anyone who knows anything about history of slavery from the british isles this is where most of the slaves were brought in and sold from to the rest of the south.
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However. South Carolina was obviously one of the original Confederate States (as was Texas), it DOES have a star on both the Confederate national and battle flags. 
