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Actually, they are the only people forming a regional culture in the metro area. Go-go, crabbing, Redskins fandom, etc. are all DC specific things. ).
crabbing is found throughout the chesapeake region. I lived in baltimore and the local kids (who were NOT african american, but WERE working class) crapped off the same waterfront walkway that was attracting new yuppie buildings. Crabbing as in industry is also found in the Gulf Coast, but i dont know if amateur crabbing is as big a deal down there.
redskins fandom is found throughout the metro region.
pro Football fandom in general is found in most metro regions in the USA. That folks in a given metro root for their local team, in particular ways, does not strike me as being something unique about a metro area culture.
I think we are discussing the regional identity of greater DC - if its southern or northern. Not whats unique about it.
First, that's not accurate. You are arguing that it's not southern. I was arguing that it's not northern. And I further argued that "not southern" or "national" or whatever you want to call it does not equal "northern." And we got onto this topic because DC's Finest claimed that Washington, DC was part of the Northeast, which it is not.
Second, you really need to learn to keep things straight. Here's what I responded to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
Clearly the district is african american. But its not the case that the only people forming a regional culture in the metro area are DC (and PG) based african americans on the one hand, and Stafford county based tea partiers on the other. Ignoring the white inner and middle suburbanites, on the (incorrect) assumption that they are all "in and out" is to miss the heart of the "white yankee" culture in the region.
How can you then turn around and say that I'm getting off topic? Your claim is that blacks and southern whites are not the only ones contributing to the DC Area's regional culture to which my response was: "What 'culture' have white inner and middle suburbanites contributed to the DC region?" I'm really waiting on a response to that one, btw.
And saying, "Oh well, crabbing is not a part of the local culture because they do it in the Gulf" is ridiculous. That's like saying Zydeco is not an integral part of New Orleans culture because they listen to it in Houston. There are few things in this world that are truly unique.
First, that's not accurate. You are arguing that it's not southern. I was arguing that it's not northern. And I further argued that "not southern" or "national" or whatever you want to call it does not equal "northern." And we got onto this topic because DC's Finest claimed that Washington, DC was part of the Northeast, which it is not.
There is some southern admixtuyre in the regional culture, which however, is still more northern than southern. I like the term "mid atlantic".
And I think its heavy economic and social connections to other cities on the NEC qualify it as northeastern, as I have said earlier.
as for "unique regional culture" you misread me. I mean merely that ordinary suburbanites should be counted in determining the regional character. The context for that was the mention of rednecks - certainly if there is something in redneck culture in southern Charles County maryland, or in the less suburbanized parts of Stafford, that is unique from other southern areas, I am not aware of it.
"And saying, "Oh well, crabbing is not a part of the local culture because they do it in the Gulf" is ridiculous. That's like saying Zydeco is not an integral part of New Orleans culture because they listen to it in Houston. There are few things in this world that are truly unique."
indeed. thats my point - individual metro area cultures, interesting though they may be, are probably less significant in understanding regional culture in the US than larger areas are.
As for crabbing, while Im not real familiar with it in the Gulf its generally a charecteristic of chespeake bay regional culture, and is not really more identified with DC than with other areas (in particular of course baltimore) nor is it particularly identified with african americans. It is, both as industry, and as a form of leisure, associated with the working class, and that in DC its associated with african americans is an artifact of there not being (recently) a white working class in DC.
Oh really? What is the Northern Virginia/Northwest DC dialect? Pray tell. And what cuisines are we talking about here?
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
I would say the regional culture of the liberals in Del Ray is not terribly different from that of the moderates in Burke, or the Gop voters in Ashburn.
Or Portland. Or Seattle. Or Denver. Or any other city where people have unique tastes, views and behaviors that are coincidentally shared by millions of people across the country.
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
Its a blend of american regional cultures.
Atlanta is a blend of American regional cultures. Go inside of I-285 in Atlanta and try to find someone who is actually from Atlanta. It's damn near a Mission Impossible.
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
By regional culture of course I meant "Are they southern" Are they northern" "Are they something in between" not " have they created something unique to the metro area" Since we were earlier discussing things that say, Philly and NYC have IN COMMON, i thought we were trying to define regional boundaries, not discussing metro-unique things.
Yeah, we were until you commented on the putative impact of Subaru-driving, Whole Foods-shopping liberals on the regional culture. And I still don't see how Subaru-driving liberals make DC more like NYC and Philly, and hence "Northeastern (which is really the point you've been driving at, heh), since those people also exist in mass quantities in Atlanta and the Research Triangle. Will Durham shortly be a Northeastern city once it's completely overrun by California transplants?
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
As for Ansley Park, I am not familiar with it. It does not seem impossible to me that there are places in atlanta with the same mix of regional cultures as is found in the suburbs of DC. I dont know if they make up the same percent of the metro area though.
It's getting there. Pretty soon, Atlanta will have more in common with NYC than it will with Birmingham. After all, a good chunk of the people there are from Jersey, Philly and New York, including my own brother and his family.
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
You continue to appear to think that the DC metro area is composed of rednecks in southern Md and the parts of NoVa from outer PWC and on south - african americans - and snobby "liberals" in DC and a few areas in Md and NoVa. You ignored the middle to upper middle class suburban whites in places such as burke, west springfield, city of fairfax, vienna, oakton, chantilly, dranesville, ashburn, brambleton, etc (and they are also found in PWC, in stafford, etc, etc - and I think in maryland as well)
No, I didn't ignore them. But you've pretty much laid out the rough contours of the area--wealthy, liberal elitist whites and poor blacks in the core, rednecks in the outer counties of Maryland and Virginia with growing mix of Asians and more educated whites (which is a relatively nascent phenomena). But again, how does this make the DC area more like Philadelphia or Boston?
You continue to appear to think that liberal, educated and Whole Foods makes a place less southern and more northern.
There is some southern admixtuyre in the regional culture, which however, is still more northern than southern. I like the term "mid atlantic".
Yes, if you define northern as "educated" and "liberal," which seems to be the case even though you won't explicitly state that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
And I think its heavy economic and social connections to other cities on the NEC qualify it as northeastern, as I have said earlier.
That's a slightly better argument than "it's educated and liberal."
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
as for "unique regional culture" you misread me. I mean merely that ordinary suburbanites should be counted in determining the regional character. The context for that was the mention of rednecks - certainly if there is something in redneck culture in southern Charles County maryland, or in the less suburbanized parts of Stafford, that is unique from other southern areas, I am not aware of it.
No, I get your argument. It's basically this in a nutshell:
"There are waaaaay too many educated liberals from the Northeast, Midwest and California (and many from places like Tennessee and Texas, too!) for DC to ever be considered a southern city."
That's the gist of it, no? Do they define the character of the region? Sure, they make it (most of it) bland and generic. Have they contributed to the actual "culture" of the region the way we think of the Irish in Boston or the Italians in New York? No.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
indeed. thats my point - individual metro area cultures, interesting though they may be, are probably less significant in understanding regional culture in the US than larger areas are.
So other than "liberal" and "educated," which the Research Triangle has going on, what else makes Washington, DC "Northeastern?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
As for crabbing, while Im not real familiar with it in the Gulf its generally a charecteristic of chespeake bay regional culture, and is not really more identified with DC than with other areas (in particular of course baltimore) nor is it particularly identified with african americans. It is, both as industry, and as a form of leisure, associated with the working class, and that in DC its associated with african americans is an artifact of there not being (recently) a white working class in DC.
I did not say that it was identified with DC more than it is with other areas. Nor did I say that it was identified with blacks (not sure where the hell you got that from). I said that it was a part of the area's regional heritage, which is especially true in Anne Arundel and Calvert Counties (I used to go crabbing every summer).
No, I didn't ignore them. But you've pretty much laid out the rough contours of the area--wealthy, liberal elitist whites and poor blacks in the core, rednecks in the outer counties of Maryland and Virginia with growing mix of Asians and more educated whites (which is a relatively nascent phenomena). But again, how does this make the DC area more like Philadelphia or Boston?
You continue to appear to think that liberal, educated and Whole Foods makes a place less southern and more northern.
the presence of middle class whites in the suburbs is not a nascent phenomenon at all, but has been the case here since the late 1940s. The only difference is that in recent decades there many fewer middle class suburban whites to be found in arlington and Alex and a few of the oldest parts of FFX, and they are now mostly found (within NoVa) in the rest of FFX, in the more affluent parts of PWC, and in almost all of Loudoun.
Their accents are, to my ears, general northern - definitely NOT southern. I am not good enough with linguistics to determine the relative components of northeastern, midwestern, californian.
The cuisine markers - things like oatmeal being somewhat more common at breakfast than grits, when you ask for tea its assumed to mean hot tea unless you specifiy iced, and the iced tea is usually not sweetened, and some other classic markers.
Again, I am not talking about a unique NoVa cuisine, but about where we are in terms of various cultural markers that typically demarcate north from south. I would say we are no the northern side of almost all those lines.
And I have not been discussing volvo driving (subaru - I didnt know that was hipster) or yoga or liberalism. There are loads of yankee, northern accented, totally unhip, more or less moderate republican or democrat folks out here. I would suggest they make up the majority of the white people in the greater DC region - more than the rednecks plus the hipsters/yuppies combined. It may not look that way in Bloomingdale (or from the distance of Brooklyn) but if you spend more time in Fairfax and Loudoun Counties, you may come to see what I mean.
Of course if you just find it more interesting to write about "eevil liberal elitist hipsters" as it appears, thats your choice.
(as for not many atlanta born people in atlanta - what would be more imporant would be how many SOUTHERN born people are there in Atlanta - I uses to live in Jacksonville florida - where there were hardly any florida born people - but the very large numbers of (white) transplants from the carolinas, alabama, and especially South georgia balanced the influence of northern transplants)
No, I didn't ignore them. But you've pretty much laid out the rough contours of the area--wealthy, liberal elitist whites and poor blacks in the core, rednecks in the outer counties of Maryland and Virginia with growing mix of Asians and more educated whites (which is a relatively nascent phenomena). But again, how does this make the DC area more like Philadelphia or Boston?
You continue to appear to think that liberal, educated and Whole Foods makes a place less southern and more northern.
At least by political views, whites vote far more Democratic in the DC metro than the Atlanta metro — the "liberal elite" demographic is much higher. Check voting % of different towns.
As for poor blacks, there are plenty of those, but also plenty of middle-class blacks — Prince Georges County isn't exactly poor.
Yes, if you define northern as "educated" and "liberal," which seems to be the case even though you won't explicitly state that.
half of the people I am thinking of work for the department of defense or defense contractors, and have precious little use for liberals.
I am NOT talking about political liberalism. At all. I am talking about dialect, church affiliation, cuisine, attitudes to extended family, and lots of CULTURAL markers of nothernness vs southernness.
(by the way, Ive known and know some southern white liberals - they were no less southern for being liberal - but they were southern in ways MOST NoVa whites are not)
You have a bee in your bonnet about liberals - you are introducing it to a conversation where its not relevant (have you overlooked my pointing out eugene Delgaudio, the leading reactionary on the Loudoun BOS, who happens to be an italian catholic?)
You are also focusing on blandness - of course this is a mixed cultural area, and since its people are mostly 2nd or 3rd generation suburbanites, it doesnt have the tang of an immigrant culture, or one composed of recent migrants from rural areas. That does not mean there are no markers of regional identity.
I mean is a WASP from the upper east side whose roots in NYC go back 7 generations less "northeastern" than an italian american from Staten Island? Northeastern does not mean 'colorful' or parochial.
"There are waaaaay too many educated liberals from the Northeast, Midwest and California (and many from places like Tennessee and Texas, too!) for DC to ever be considered a southern city.".
I invite anyone to read my posts above and judge if thats a fair charecterization of what I said.
I am not going to keep responding to the same mischarecterization of my posts, repeated no matter how many times I clarify it.
the presence of middle class whites in the suburbs is not a nascent phenomenon at all
That's not what I said. I said that a healthy mix of Asians and more educated whites is a relatively nascent phenomena. Places like Loudoun County and PWC were very different just 10 or 15 years ago. Even Annandale, where you currently live, was not nearly as Korean in 1990 as it is now. I used to have family in Annandale, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
Their accents are, to my ears, general northern - definitely NOT southern. I am not good enough with linguistics to determine the relative components of northeastern, midwestern, californian.
You would notice the same thing in Atlanta. But the working-class whites I tend to encounter from Northern Virginia or Calvert County (think secretary or maintenance worker) have a distinctly southern accent. The older whites I've encountered from the inner burbs (Arlington, Alexandria) do not sound nearly as southern, but the same could be said for the older whites living in DeKalb County, Georgia. For some reason, educated people in both the North and South often tend to not have southern accents. Stephen Colbert, who was born and raised in Charleston, SC (the home of Rhett Butler), said he actively worked to not talk with a southern accent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
The cuisine markers - things like oatmeal being somewhat more common at breakfast than grits, when you ask for tea its assumed to mean hot tea unless you specifiy iced, and the iced tea is usually not sweetened, and some other classic markers.
Well, I'm not sure where you're eating at, but you can get sweet tea and homemade grits at the Woodside Deli in Silver Spring (highly recommended - not owned by black people, btw) along with several other places in suburban Maryland like Rip's in Bowie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
Again, I am not talking about a unique NoVa cuisine, but about where we are in terms of various cultural markers that typically demarcate north from south. I would say we are no the northern side of almost all those lines.
It's a lot easier to find sweet tea and grits in the DMV than you think, man. You're not going to find it at George Latroube's Cafe of Bourgieness in the inner core, but yeah, it's not hard to find at a random roadside diner in Maryland or Virginia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
And I have not been discussing volvo driving (subaru - I didnt know that was hipster) or yoga or liberalism.
Subarus are SWPL. Fixed-gear bicycles are hipster. Hipster, however, can be said to be a subset of SWPL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
There are loads of yankee, northern accented, totally unhip, more or less moderate republican or democrat folks out here. I would suggest they make up the majority of the white people in the greater DC region - more than the rednecks plus the hipsters/yuppies combined.
There are loads of Yankee, northern accented, totally unhip, more or less moderate Republican or Democrat folks in Atlanta and Miami, too. That doesn't make those cities "Northeastern." And those people do not constitute the majority of white people in the DC area. I do not think of someone from California, Oregon, New Mexico, Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin or South Carolina as being "Yankee" no matter how eductated they are. And these people comprise a large percentage of the people living in the DC area. It's not all straight Brooklyn the way you're making it seem.
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- not owned by black people, btw) along with several other places in suburban Maryland like Rip's in Bowie. 
