Thoughts on the Cleveland Police shooting and Race Relations (East Cleveland: foreclosure, attorney)

[L2DB]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

1. He was 12.
2. He was playing with a toy. Adults sell toys for kids that look real, and millions of kids have played with them before he did. You can't allow kids to have them and then blame them for playing with them like a toy gun is supposed to be played with- as if it was real. That's bullsh*t. Even if the toy gun had had the orange cap, the police couldn't have possibly seen it anyway, because they didn't bother to assess the situation before they started shooting.
3. The video did not show him pointing it at anyone. Indeed, there didn't appear to be a single other person in the park at the time.

These are prime examples of "I believe it's entirely the cop's fault so I'm only going to focus on interpreting the information so that it supports my belief" thinking.

1) IIRC, the autopsy report said he was 5'7" and 195 pounds. It's not unreasonable for the cop to assume he was older.

2) There's some argument about whether a pellet gun is a "toy", but sure, blame toy-makers. I agree they shouldn't be making realistic looking toy guns. But that's not something the cop controls. Should he assume everytime he sees a gun that it's a toy? That seems like a good way to get himself killed.

3) Tamir was off camera multiple times for multiple minutes. He could have pointed it at people then. He could have pointed it on camera at people that were off camera. Why would that person that called 911 make up that he was pointing it at people?

Now, again, I don't think the police were justified in shooting him or handled everything correctly, but you should really try to look at things with a more balanced perspectve.

[ohioaninsc]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

Good observation ^ IMO everyone gets some of the blame.. Black President not addressing the joblessness in the black community... national and local black leaders not addressing Disproportionate number of blacks failing to look in mirror about their poor life choices... Which continues a cycle of thug culture, fatherless families, high dropout rates and poor skills for unemployment... The findings of the justice department point out major deficiency in over site in cpd.. The person in charge of hiring and ultimately responsible is black mayor Jackson... IMO blame lies everywhere including the kid. FYI - armed robberies, crime and murder are not uncommon in Cleveland, including 2 cops killed in that area over the yrs...

I see this posted a lot of places...what exact policies would get black people to work? Nobody gives concrete policies that would work. Give me a policy that you you believe would work and explain how it does work? One cannot simply make company's hire people, especially if they don't have proper education/knowledge/skill set to perform the work.

[ohioaninsc]

The thing that gets me is this officer should have never been hired to begin with...he couldn't cut it at the safe little suburb of Independence...what do CPD even take a chance on this guy...coupled w/ the driver not following safe procedures by pulling up so close...no warnings issued(video doesn't lie, not enough time to issue 1 warning)...this case shoudl be a slam dunk...if this cop isn't indicted and the CPD doesn't settle for millions, the chief and all top brass need their walking papers immediately. This is far worse than the Michael Brown shooting which w/ eyewitness accounts no being very clear at least had some reasonable doubt...this shoudl be open and shut.

[jbcmh81]

[quote]

Originally Posted by L2DB

These are prime examples of "I believe it's entirely
the cop's fault so I'm only going to focus on interpreting the information so that
it supports my belief" thinking.

It IS the cop's fault. I kind of hold adults to higher standards of justice than children. Crazy, huh.

1) IIRC, the autopsy report said he was 5'7" and 195 pounds. It's not
unreasonable for the cop to assume he was older.

Perhaps not, but the cop started shooting within 2 seconds of pulling up. What could he possibly assess correctly in that kind of time?

2) There's some argument about whether a pellet gun is a "toy", but sure, blame
toy-makers. I agree they shouldn't be making realistic looking toy guns. But
that's not something the cop controls. Should he assume everytime he sees a gun
that it's a toy? That seems like a good way to get himself killed.

If it was supposed to have an orange tip, it was clearly intended to not be considered a real gun. At the time of purchase, if not a real gun, what was it? The kid didn't control manufacturing, marketing or perhaps even the purchase of it. He was using it exactly as was intended.

I expect cops to both hold themselves and be held to a higher standard. Clearly you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. Cops are human, and I will never understand why people think they should always be given the automatic benefit of the doubt.

3) Tamir was off camera multiple times for multiple minutes. He could have
pointed it at people then. He could have pointed it on camera at people that
were off camera. Why would that person that called 911 make up that he was
pointing it at people?

Why do people do anything? Even if Rice was doing that, that still wouldn't justify gunning him down immediately.

Now, again, I don't think the police were justified in shooting him or
handled everything correctly, but you should really try to look at things with a
more balanced perspective.

You just said you don't think it's justified, but you're criticizing a position you basically agree with??

[jbcmh81]

Video shows John Crawford's girlfriend aggressively questioned after Ohio police shot him dead in Walmart | US news | The Guardian

On the Crawford case.

[1watertiger]

Originally Posted by ohioaninsc

I see this posted a lot of places...what exact policies would get black people to work? Nobody gives concrete policies that would work. Give me a policy that you you believe would work and explain how it does work? One cannot simply make company's hire people, especially if they don't have proper education/knowledge/skill set to perform the work.

How about law-abiding , hardworking , taxpaying legal citizens are getting fed up with supporting millions of people who continuously make poor decisions?.. Read the last sentence you typed above ^. Now ask yourself why people don't have "education/knowledge/skill set".? Its surely not from the lack of tax dollars thrown at these program's and entitlements.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by 1watertiger

How about law-abiding , hardworking , taxpaying legal citizens are getting fed up with supporting millions of people who continuously make poor decisions?.. Read the last sentence you typed above ^. Now ask yourself why people don't have "education/knowledge/skill set".? Its surely not from the lack of tax dollars thrown at these program's and entitlements.

Watertiger, did you forget my reply to you on 12/8?

Do you believe our schools, unlike those in Germany, prepare a large percentage of our students for viable work careers?

Do you believe that our government has created an economically competitive environment for our businesses?

Do you believe that most American CEOs care about bettering the conditions of their American workers, or their shareholders if public corporations, as much as aggrandizing their personal wealth?

When college graduates with good grades and technical skills are underemployed, what do you think the prospects are for high school graduates?

I have a hunch that persons who you consider to have made "good" decisions have done so at the expense of the great multitudes of Americans. E.g., consider Mitt Romney's $100 million IRA, a joke when most Americans have very limited opportunities to save for retirement compared to a nation like Canada.

What's Really Going on With Mitt Romney's $102 Million IRA - The Atlantic

JobsOhio just hands over hundreds of millions to business owners, with few strings attached, while offering little training or improved job skills for Ohio workers. Are these the good (political) decisions of which you are in admiration?

I do understand the thrust of your complaint, but I don't think you grasp how much the deck has been stacked against the poor and disadvantaged in the U.S. in recent decades, often make good decisions difficult if not futile.

E.g., why haven't the Republicans or Democrats halted the flood of unskilled, illegal immigrant workers into the country which have materially reduced the wages of native-born unskilled workers and halted the upward mobility engine? Massive social expenditures have been diverted to these immigrants, reducing our ability to assist others in need.

Why do we spend hundreds of billions in the Middle East instead of at home each year?

[L2DB]

Originally Posted by jbcmh81

You just said you don't think it's justified, but you're criticizing a position you basically agree with??

You're missing the point. It's possible to take a position without being extremist about it.

To me, the primary problem with the whole situation was the cop car pulling up so close. Not the age of the person or whether it was a real gun because it's not unreasonable for the cop to assume he was older and that it was a real gun.

And the driver of the car was the veteran officer, yet no one seems to be talking much about him.

[L2DB]

Cleveland Heartless Felons gang issues orders to kill white police officers | cleveland.com

[Cleverfield]

This 60 Minutes segment on Cleveland police offers some food for thought:
On the beat with Officers Newton and Bauhof - CBS News