Question Regarding RTA Trains (Cleveland, Lorain: employment, transfer to, neighborhoods)

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by Minervah

Interesting. I used to ride Chicago's El trains when they were very heavy wooden affairs with wicker seats. Their replacements were the steel lighter ones. To me, those were the differences between "heavy" and "light" although I know that's not the definition.

I'm guessing the cars on the Red Line and Blue and Green Lines are not interchangeable due to different platform heights, such as long Van Aken and Shaker Blvd., but that's only a guess.

[Minervah]

I love trains of any kind. I'll take them just for the ride. So I begin wondering about them and how they came into being and so forth. In Chicago, the El trains run on and above ground and the subways run below and above. The cars are all the same now.

I always laugh at the opening and closing credits of the old "Bob Newhart" show because the route he takes and the trains he gets off and on don't really exist but it looks good on TV.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by Minervah

I love trains of any kind. I'll take them just for the ride. So I begin wondering about them and how they came into being and so forth. In Chicago, the El trains run on and above ground and the subways run below and above. The cars are all the same now.

I always laugh at the opening and closing credits of the old "Bob Newhart" show because the route he takes and the trains he gets off and on don't really exist but it looks good on TV.

Have you ridden all of the Cleveland RTA rail lines from end to the other? What about the CSU and Healthline bus rapids?

BTW, is your Lakewood decision on hold???

[Urban Peasant]

Originally Posted by WRnative

I'm guessing the cars on the Red Line and Blue and Green Lines are not interchangeable due to different platform heights, such as long Van Aken and Shaker Blvd., but that's only a guess.

The RTA Green and Blue Lines are definitely light rail partly because their vehicles can only run 1-2 cars at a time and can run alongside streets while the Red Line is heavy rail because it cannot run on the street. The Red Line only runs two cars at a time though, which is why a transit loving friend here in Boston who are familiar with the RTA says that the Red Line is a barely qualifying heavy rail line. I know there are ways to distinguish heavy and light rail although I am not sure if I hit on them here.

A line that is less clear to distinguish is Buffalo's Metro Rail which the NFTA officially classifies as light rail (which I agree with) but has long high platforms while underground which gives a sense that it can run more than two cars at a time. It's therefore light rail with some heavy rail features. So you see, things can get confusing.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

The RTA Green and Blue Lines are definitely light rail partly because their vehicles can only run 1-2 cars at a time and can run alongside streets while the Red Line is heavy rail because it cannot run on the street. The Red Line only runs two cars at a time though, which is why a transit loving friend here in Boston who are familiar with the RTA says that the Red Line is a barely qualifying heavy rail line. I know there are ways to distinguish heavy and light rail although I am not sure if I hit on them here.

A line that is less clear to distinguish is Buffalo's Metro Rail which the NFTA officially classifies as light rail (which I agree with) but has long high platforms while underground which gives a sense that it can run more than two cars at a time. It's therefore light rail with some heavy rail features. So you see, things can get confusing.

I've seen the red line with 3 cars though. Just depends on how many people they think are going to be using the train I guess.

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by Urban Peasant

Red Line is heavy rail because it cannot run on the street.

The Red Line trains obviously can run on Blue and Green Line tracks as they are the same gauge, but I guess you're confirming the Red Line cars are designed for high platforms, and, unlike Blue and Green Line trains, couldn't be accessed by passengers at street-level stops such as those of the Blue and Green Lines on Shaker Heights and Van Aken Boulevards in Shaker Hts.

After reading several sites on light vs. heavy rail, heavy rail seems mostly to refer to passenger capacity, characterized by walk-on, walk-off trains utilizing high platforms, and grades separate from other vehicular traffic and pedestrians.

I had always thought it referred to the gauge of the tracks....

[dr_j_planning]

Originally Posted by WRnative

The Red Line trains obviously can run on Blue and Green Line tracks as they are the same gauge, but I guess you're confirming the Red Line cars are designed for high platforms, and, unlike Blue and Green Line trains, couldn't be accessed by passengers at street-level stops such as those of the Blue and Green Lines on Shaker Heights and Van Aken Boulevards in Shaker Hts.

After reading several sites on light vs. heavy rail, heavy rail seems mostly to refer to passenger capacity, characterized by walk-on, walk-off trains utilizing high platforms, and grades separate from other vehicular traffic and pedestrians.

I had always thought it referred to the gauge of the tracks....

From the American Public Transportation Association Fact Book Glossary (see Mode of Service Definitions):

Heavy Rail is a mode of transit service (also called metro, subway, rapid transit, or rapid rail) operating on an electric railway with the capacity for a heavy volume of traffic. It is characterized by high speed and rapid acceleration passenger rail cars operating singly or in multi-car trains on fixed rails; separate rights-of-way from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded; sophisticated signaling, and high platform loading.

Light Rail is a mode of transit service (also called streetcar, tramway, or trolley) operating passenger rail cars singly (or in short, usually two-car or three-car, trains) on fixed rails in right-of-way that is often separated from other traffic for part or much of the way. Light rail vehicles are typically driven electrically with power being drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph; driven by an operator on board the vehicle; and may have either high platform loading or low level boarding using steps.

Fact Book Glossary

[WRnative]

Originally Posted by dr_j_planning

From the American Public Transportation Association Fact Book Glossary (see Mode of Service Definitions):

Heavy Rail is a mode of transit service (also called metro, subway, rapid transit, or rapid rail) operating on an electric railway with the capacity for a heavy volume of traffic. It is characterized by high speed and rapid acceleration passenger rail cars operating singly or in multi-car trains on fixed rails; separate rights-of-way from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded; sophisticated signaling, and high platform loading.

Light Rail is a mode of transit service (also called streetcar, tramway, or trolley) operating passenger rail cars singly (or in short, usually two-car or three-car, trains) on fixed rails in right-of-way that is often separated from other traffic for part or much of the way. Light rail vehicles are typically driven electrically with power being drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph; driven by an operator on board the vehicle; and may have either high platform loading or low level boarding using steps.

Fact Book Glossary

Dr. J, thanks, that seems to nail it.

Many times I've been told that the Red Line uses actual railroad tracks unlike the Blue and Green Lines and that's why it's a heavy rapid line. So I was surprised to learn that all three lines at times use the same tracks.

It's been an informative discussion, so thanks Minervah for the original question!

[Minervah]

Originally Posted by WRnative

Dr. J, thanks, that seems to nail it.

Many times I've been told that the Red Line uses actual railroad tracks unlike the Blue and Green Lines and that's why it's a heavy rapid line. So I was surprised to learn that all three lines at times use the same tracks.

It's been an informative discussion, so thanks Minervah for the original question!

You are welcome WR and also my thanks to Dr J as well. I never knew how to separate these out. Good info!

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by WRnative

There have been serious discussions about extending the Red Line to Euclid. It's more likely IMO, that the Healthline will be extended to Euclid with the establishment of a large park and ride there. Likely much cheaper with more stops/stations. Hopefully, RTA would offer free transfers to the Red Line at its current eastern terminus at Windermere in East Cleveland.

Red Line/HealthLine Extension Study | Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority

It appears the study has stalled.

Actually, inside sources say that the plan for choosing heavy rail as the locally preferred alternative in RTA's application for matching federal funds is gaining traction. Part of the reason is the huge potential economic stimulus to a wide are of the N.E. as well as opening up rail transit to the far N.E. part of the County as well as western Lake County. RTA officials believe that with the excess of Red Line cars available, which are currently being rehabbed, RTA could cover this 6-mile extension without immediately seeking a new car order. There is talk of private industry becoming involved in the mix, including using TIF to stimulate TOD along the route.

Bottom line: a relatively cheap extension with a major potential impact. Not saying it's going to happen, but given the fact that the project seemed dead in the water about a year ago, and that officials inside RTA and local leaders changing their tune, giving it a 2nd look and becoming creative, is cause for some optimism. Personally, I think the extension makes a lot of sense, particularly with the growth of University Circle, particularly around the new Little Italy station, where the large Intesa TOD will likely break ground next spring and there's continued growth on both sides of the tracks, in Little Italy and University Circle, Uptown.