Anyone know why they put a moratorium on Cleveland threads in city vs city? (Columbus: sales, apartment)
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You're talking about subjective and I am about objective. That's what's so hard to comprehend.
Objectively, PDX is far better than Cleveland. I'm struggling to understand your point in responding to my posts originally.
So you're saying Cleveland is great for you - therefore, ignore the issues? That it is true for all? Huh?
And you're saying since you think PDX sux more than Cleveland, it negates what I'm saying? What?
C'mon man, if you're gonna be condescending, clean up the act. Some of you folks are off.
No, again to put it your words, Portland sucked for me not everyone.
You don't think Portland has issues? How about segregation? Did you visit beyond 82nd AV when you were there? You would have seen Portland's segregation. I am not just talking about Black people either. I know the issues racial issues in Cleveland but unlike you, I also know those in Portland. Blacks were always segregated in their neighborhoods because they weren't allowed in white ones. Now you have that population pushed out of these neighborhoods which have become gentrified by white people into what some people there refer to as "Portland's Ghetto" which consists of Blacks, Asians, Hispanics the elderly and the poorer part of the population. There are not many of them though, since Portland is such a white city. A place that doesn't have many people to segregate isn't going to be much concerned about segregation after all.
I don't see how you can be objective about a city about which you know very little and have observed only as a visitor.
Subjective means seeing something from one's point of view, first hand knowledge and experience and deriving an opinion from it.
You can't really say you are objective when you are making statements about place you have only observed superficially. The pluses you mentioned in your other post on another thread really do show how little you know about the way Portland works. Most have a definite downside to them. I'm only bringing Portland into this because you claim to know so much about it when in reality you don't really understand what it's like to live there.
Funny you should say "some of you folks are off" because their experience and opinion differs from yours.
Have you been to the CLE Greyhound terminal? What is your source? You are aware Erie has a new Greyhound terminal - yes?
Yes, I've recently been in Cleveland's Greyhound terminal. I miss the days when it had long, wooden seating filling most of the terminal, but it still looks much the same as the terminal that was considered one of the best in the Greyhound system.
It is open 24/7, and when I was last there a few months ago, it had a grill restaurant that I was told also is open 24/7. That surprised me.
Cleveland's Greyhound terminal is on the edge of PlayhouseSquare, directly across the street from the new Hofbrauhaus, with a very desirable piece of real estate.
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There's increasing pressure to develop the area around the Greyhound property. Hofbrauhaus Cleveland, which opened last month on Chester Avenue between the theaters of Playhouse Square and the Greyhound station, has hopes of juicing up the area's entertainment and retail traffic.
The station is flanked by housing clusters and Cleveland's theater district.>>
Erie built an intermodal transportation center, not a dedicated Greyhound bus station, didn't it? I've never seen it, but I highly suspect it lacks any of the grandeur of the Cleveland Greyhound station.
Name another city with a stand-alone Greyhound station as nice as Cleveland's!
Once again, downtown pro sports don't impact economies in positive ways. Commonly studied and seen. Cleveland isn't some unique place where it is different. The Q was debated for this very reason.
If they did, then Cleveland downtown would be multiple times larger than it is..
Please back up your claim with some study or other substantiation.
I remember the days of Cleveland Arena and the Richfield Coliseum, when downtown Cleveland lacked any substantial entertainment or dining district, apart from the often shabby, but very fun East Flats.
Anybody that has seen downtown Cleveland's transformation over the past three decades knows that the Gateway project was a very positive impetus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pufflesmcfacehair
The Warehouse District (I looked at living down there) is mediocre. The bars and clubs and restaurants are largely average-rated on Yelp, Google, etc. Far worse than any of the neighborhoods where people gather in Cleveland.
There are some very good, well-rated restaurants in the Warehouse District -- the superb and beautiful Blue Point Grille, Taza and XO Prime Steaks come to mind.
This likely reflects the fact that the Warehouse District is a core residential district. It also has some of the city's best clubs, and sits above the East Flats entertainment/dining district.
You're talking about subjective and I am about objective.
Objectivity is very difficult, maybe impossible. Personally, I don't believe cities can be ranked better or worse than others; they're just different.
For example, to say that much of the architecture/built environment is older, in Cleveland, is an objective observation. But, whether that's a positive or a negative, is subjective. Even some of the seemingly straightforward "objective" measures you've used as negative examples are subjective. As much as I hate to say it, there are probably people who would even consider Cleveland's segregation a good thing.
Comparing Portland to Cleveland is tough since they're both in very different stages of their respective urban life cycles. I'm not necessarily arguing that one shouldn't compare them, but the strengths and weaknesses of each city take on differing magnitudes when viewed in the context of the respective city's stage of development.
You can point out that, objectively, Cleveland's hyper-segregation is far more severe than Portland's. However, this still ignores the more nuanced elements of this comparison, one of the more significant being that Portland is so hyper-gentrified that they just started running out of traditionally marginalized groups to segregate. Now the segregation falls more uniformly along economic lines within more similar population demographics, whereas Cleveland still has the pretty traditional ties of race to economic status.
I'm also personally not a huge fan of the Warehouse District so I can find some common ground on that opinion.
LOL, just because some nimrod thinks segregation is good doesn't make it right, factual, or truthful.
I don't live in a post-modern world where truth and facts don't exist.
No, cities can definitely be ranked better or worse. Denying that objective truth is just an attempt to make an argument where one cannot be made. Very, very few will agree with you.
What about segregation that happens organically? Isn't that preferable to forced integration?
What about segregation that happens organically? Isn't that preferable to forced integration?
Self-segregation can usually be traced back to some type of indirect bias or misconceptions that relate back to systematic problems. So, while people might not be intentionally segregating themselves, it's still a problematic trend that we should address.
"Writing in an opinion piece for The Washington Post in 2009, Benjamin noted that racial discrimination isn’t necessarily as deliberate and intentional as it used to be. In Idaho and Georgia, for example, Benjamin found that many white people emigrate to these predominantly white communities not necessarily because they’re racist, but for “friendliness, comfort, security, safety—reasons that they implicitly associate to whiteness in itself.” But these qualities are subconsciously inseparable from race and class—thereby letting discrimination and segregation thrive “even in the absence of any person's prejudice or ill will.”
Everything is at different stages. I can run faster than grandpa because grandpa is 85 years old. Grandpa doesn't use that as a handicap to say he's doing A.O.K in a wheelchair because relatively speaking, in the past he was pretty sweet. He acknowledges he's close to dying and accepts it.
Cities are experiencing the same, "hold on 'til the very end" attitude that families do when their vegetable family member is drooping on the table. Dying in humans has been prolonged to misery; so has dying in cities. In the past, when the water dried up, you moved. When the land wore out, you moved. When the people blew you away and your city became a war zone, you moved. If the water came back, eh, you could move back. The 20th century now allows us to create false economies in this century as well.
The best bet is for folks to try to change it. But I can't serve a community when I'm being compelled to entertain alcoholism, weed, casinos, and tourist-traps at all hours.
If I was a black man, I'd be more inclined to believe someone would hire me, help me, or treat me with respect in PDX than in Cleveland. That's the point I'm making - it seems the statistics back it up. Cleveland is an awful, awful place for anyone who isn't white and middle class. Go to the breweries, the "top" restaurants, and the "hip areas" - it's just a sea of white in a city that is supermajority not-white.
As a white person, I can inadvertently (or intentionally) take advantage of that and party like it's going out of style or try to serve a community.
On a daily basis I see black people working at and patronizing all sorts of places...Macy's, Whole Foods, Bruegger's, RTA, Banks, coffeehouses, libraries - and the mayor is black... It might be an awful place for those preferring to hang with the 'hoodies or not willing to try and better themselves and be good citizens.
Self-segregation can usually be traced back to some type of indirect bias or misconceptions that relate back to systematic problems. So, while people might not be intentionally segregating themselves, it's still a problematic trend that we should address.
"Writing in an opinion piece for The Washington Post in 2009, Benjamin noted that racial discrimination isn’t necessarily as deliberate and intentional as it used to be. In Idaho and Georgia, for example, Benjamin found that many white people emigrate to these predominantly white communities not necessarily because they’re racist, but for “friendliness, comfort, security, safety—reasons that they implicitly associate to whiteness in itself.” But these qualities are subconsciously inseparable from race and class—thereby letting discrimination and segregation thrive “even in the absence of any person's prejudice or ill will.”
I'm not sure....maybe blacks or other groups prefer living in neighborhoods with others like them. I observe an overall cultural and behavioral difference between most blacks and most whites. I prefer living amongst predominantly whites although I have no problem with interactions/friendships with those of other races and cultures.
You're right, though. Gentrification happens everywhere. In Cleveland, it's just happened and happening far worse.
I wouldn't say it's happening worse in Cleveland than in PNW cities. Portland has reached the point where the majority-white spaces have consumed the entire city (though these cities were generally always more white), while Cleveland is a good twenty years behind. But, let's face it, we both know that Cleveland won't face the same type of overwhelming gentrification we see in Portland and Seattle, San Francisco, etc.
I think if you want to get into the weeds, we could go find a bunch of pieces on the dangers that POC feel by existing in majority-white spaces like Portland, innate privilege, etc, but this forum probably isn't the place for it. Regardless, being a black man in Portland might be better if you already have the economic capacity that allows you to live in Portland, but there are still enough issues that lend themselves to making it a not-ideal experience. So I refrain from saying these types of cities aren't filled with problems - they just have more insidious types of issues than Cleveland or Flint. Obviously, it is also a bad experience being poor in Cleveland, so I'm not trying to say one will have a better time existing in CLE. I'm really not disagreeing with the comparisons you're making, I'm just not as prone to elevate "objectively better" cities since they also have a ton of issues.
Cleveland is at least in a position where displacement doesn't have to be a direct result of the city gentrifying. Places like Ohio City, Tremont, etc. are going to continue becoming concentrations of wealth. The key to ending Cleveland's segregation lies primarily in addressing concentrated poverty and the lack of resources available in neighborhoods like Mt Pleasant, Kinsman, etc.
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