Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Bay Area (22 years) - Such a beautiful region with so much going on and so much to do. I lived all around (Berkeley, Oakland, Walnut Creek, SF, Richmond). Very liberal and diverse. Very artsy and open minded. There is a weird "I'm too cool" arrogant vibe throughout the area that when mixed with its transient nature is pretty alienating though. Also, the economic disparity is just horrible. Creates a very palpable tension that seems always ready to 'explode'. The rest of the nation doesn't realize how rough it is beyond the wealthy enclaves and more touristy areas. Oakland can barely afford to stay running, police won't show up to anything less than murder or an active shooter, meanwhile a global epicenter of wealth is literally on the other side of the bridge. Just sick. Even inside the city of SF, so much poverty and homelessness. Again, it's a beautiful region and a wonderful place to grow up if you're well off -- with being immersed in technology and culture -- but the entire area is so prohibitively expensive that it's cannibalizing itself. If you're not top 5%, you're free-falling.
Chicago (2 years) - Downtown and lakefront are just gorgeous. The north side has some awesome culture. It's such a humongous city though. I honestly feel their rush hour traffic is way worse than SF's. And there isn't anywhere great to live that's both affordable and safe. The taxes are crazy and the politics are broken. Not a place I'd buy a house and settle down. But I did meet my wife there!
NYC/Brooklyn (8 months) - Okay... another big city. Big mistake. Way too much happening all at once for the more laid back Cali guy I am. On to the next...
Madison, WI (6 years) - Went opposite to NYC. Madison's a very special little town. It's a capitol city and home to a major university (UW), so think Columbus but smaller and less sprawly, and even more liberal. Centered on an isthmus with two nice sized lakes on either side, May - October is gorgeous. Winter come... I thought Chicago was cold... boy it can be brutal. It does have a strong small community vibe (MSA is 500k?) and the downtown is seeing some considerable development. Just not a lot going on outside of the UW, and it's also entirely NOT diverse which wasn't always too pleasant. Some weird racial dynamics for such a "liberal" place. Housing was also surprisingly expensive. Couldn't justify buying a 1,200 sqft bungalow in a B area of Madison, WI for $300,000.
Minneapolis (1 year) - Did you hear "cold"? Think "Holy Polar Vortex Peter, Am I Alive?" Another cool, hip, liberal city. Reminded me a bit of the bay with how artsy and fun it is. Surprisingly diverse too. Probably the best Income vs COL ratios I've experienced as well. Overall, it's great place... except it's tooo cold. And the housing selection in our price range kinda sucked. Basically was like Madison on steroids, in every single way.
Cleveland (8 months and counting) - Yes... all of my friends and family thought I lost my mind. "Cleveland? Didn't their river catch on fire?" Hahaha... but my wife and I spent almost 2 years traveling around looking for a nice sized city to settle down and buy a house in, and CLE Rocks. I tell everyone, "we are economic migrants" because the COL here is so low compared to other places, but honestly, CLE has so much potential. We really wanted to go south and escape the cold, however there was just too much sprawl for us urban dwellers in those cities. Plus after my wife experienced 115 degree days... and snakes, back to the north we went. We fled Indianapolis one night because we hated it so much and drove straight to Cincy and then Columbus. Our original plan was to head towards Pittsburgh, where I've got family, but a complete stranger recommended we spend a day in Cedar Point and then head into CLE.
That night we drove into CLE down 90 through West Lake and got off near Rocky River. We took Detroit Ave all the way into downtown. Somewhere around Lakewood all my wife kept saying was, "Wow, this is really cute. Is this Cleveland?" We got a room at the Marriott downtown, walked around public square, through Terminal Tower and around to East 4th where we ate at Mable's BBQ and then caught a show at the House of Blues. On the way back to our room we walked through the Arcade and by the time we got back to our room we both agreed we should stay for awhile. That night I hopped onto realtor.com and screamed multiple times, "Do you see how cheap this house is!!??"
Honestly, it seems CLE's reputation around the nation is well deserved in many ways, especially when considering the entirety of CLE proper. It actually is really saddening because you can see what this city could have been if not for uber greedy businessmen and corrupt, lazy politicians. This place has so many redeeming qualities, but still such a long way to go. Like decades, not years. Not sure we'll stay here forever...
But here's the thing...
My sister's mortgage, house bills and property taxes in the Bay Area -- in just one year of payments -- cost nearly as much as our entire house costs in CLE Heights. Read that again! And our houses are the same size (though she has a pool overlooking mountains and we have a view of some old ladies pink awning that hasn't been painted since the 1950's). Add that to us living next to all the greatness that University Circle offers and just a 15 minute drive (with zero traffic) to downtown, and 25 to the Westside Market, and we're both very happy for the moment. Given a few strong wins in the business column, the right development projects could really make this city boom. Of course that will mean gentrification... but we could use some of that.
You make some good points yes Cleveland proper should be better than what it is. But, the politicians and some of the business people messed it up. But, on the flip side you grew up spoiled lol and most of your adult life you've been spoiled jk . You're used to big, glamorous cities because you lived in those cities most of your life so Cleveland is a culture shock to you (correct me if I'm wrong). So of course, Cleveland isn't gonna measure up to Chicago, the Bay Area, Minneapolis, etc. sorry Cleveland isn't one of those cities. Also, I read articles and comments on how people hate Silicon Valley being in the Bay despite the fact it's the main reason that the Bay Area is thriving.
So of course, Cleveland isn't gonna measure up to Chicago, the Bay Area, Minneapolis, etc. sorry Cleveland isn't one of those cities.
Your logic is both bizarre and tiresome. You constantly want to compare Cleveland to cities with much, much more steep costs of living and housing, while ignoring the many wonderful amenities in Cleveland, including relatively inexpensive and world class cultural amenities. Give me a break. Seriously, give us all a break.
Posters even in this thread have explained this repeatedly and you simply can't grasp it.
BTW, hopefully you aren't trying to elevate Madison, WI, over Cleveland.
You've expressed your opinion repeatedly throughout C-D, and it's nothing more than a sad sack, "woe is me" rant. I'm so very tired of it.
If you're asking us how we resolve your inferiority complex about Cleveland, as the title of this thread implies, I would suggest seeking some professional help, as I don't think your Cleveland inferiority complex is logical. In essence, you're ranting about your economic resources compared to those who can afford among the most expensive locales in the U.S., and in some of those places, especially for persons with lesser resources, arguably the standard of living and quality of life isn't as good as in Cleveland. E.g., due to our low cost of living, many persons in Cleveland can more easily provide for their retirement, travel, buy better housing, etc.
As someone who has traveled extensively in the U.S., and who greatly enjoys Cleveland's low cost of living, fantastic cultural amenities, world-class medical care, great park systems, pro sports franchises, good mass transit compared to many cities, vibrant downtown, relatively uncongested highways, Lake Erie, etc., I simply don't get you. Even if you're economically challenged, the likes of the Cleveland Museum of Art, the Cleveland Public Library, and the parks and many events are free, and there are amazingly cheap seats available to Indians games or event Playhouse Square ("Smart Seats"). Exactly where in the U.S. can you enjoy everything that Cleveland has to offer for a lower cost of living??? Seriously, I would really like to know that!!!
Perhaps the weather depresses you. There are many cheaper places to live in more southern states, if you don't mind oppressive heat, fire ants, Formosan termites, hurricanes/spawned tornados, etc., but you likely won't find the same amenities available to Greater Clevelanders.
And what messed up Cleveland wasn't local politicians as much as federal and state politicians. I've posted repeatedly about how American manufacturers have been eviscerated by the fact that the U.S. is the only significant economy in the world that isn't a participant in the global value-added tax regime and about the Republican Toll Road through northern Ohio and Indiana.
Cleveland has benefited from some very good mayors, such as Tom Johnson, one the greatest American mayors ever, and George Voinovich. Tom Johnson's footprint is all over Cleveland even a century later.
If you want to see some corrupt and horrid politicians, check out post 60 again. Chicago residents are and will pay a terrible price for the financial pit that now is consuming their public resources.
I will admit that the once great, and now improving, Cleveland public schools were partially gutted by inept school boards and administrators, some of whom were corrupt.
Your logic is both bizarre and tiresome. You constantly want to compare Cleveland to cities with much, much more steep costs of living, while ignoring the many wonderful amenities in Cleveland, including relatively inexpensive and world class cultural amenities. Give me a break. Seriously, give us all a break.
BTW, hopefully you aren't trying to elevate Madison, WI, over Cleveland.
You've expressed your opinion repeatedly throughout C-D, and it's nothing more than a sad sack, "woe is me" rant. I'm so very tired of it.
That's not what I'm doing, I was jokingly responding to that person's post. Because they were comparing their experiences to living in those different cities compared to Cleveland. He said that Cleveland deserves it reputation across the nation. I was jokingly saying to him that I'm sorry that Cleveland isn't those previous cities he lived in. It was just a joke, that's all. Relax.
That's not what I'm doing, I was jokingly responding to that person's post. Because they were comparing their experiences to living in those different cities compared to Cleveland. He said that Cleveland deserves it reputation across the nation. I was jokingly saying to him that I'm sorry that Cleveland isn't those previous cities he lived in. It was just a joke, that's all. Relax.
Was the title to this thread -- "How Do Clevelanders With An Inferiority Complex to Get Over It?" -- and all of your other threads and posts, just part of your joke as well?
I've read all of your posts in thread after C-D thread. NOT LAUGHING.
And the poster to whom you were responding MOVED TO CLEVELAND because of the quality/cost ratio offered by the city after living in all of the cities mentioned. Is that depressing???
Was the title to this thread -- "How Do Clevelanders With An Inferiority Complex to Get Over It?" -- and all of your other threads and posts, just part of your joke as well?
I've read all of your posts in thread after C-D thread. NOT LAUGHING.
And the poster to whom you were responding MOVED TO CLEVELAND because of the quality/cost ratio offered by the city after living in all of the cities mentioned. Is that depressing???
The poster also said that Cleveland deserved it's national rep for the lack of amenities in the city and not having enough integrated or gentrified neighborhoods. I was joking about how he was spoiled by the more amenities in the other cities he lived in. Just sarcasm.
Last edited by QCongress83216; 04-16-2018 at 05:10 PM..
Following other people... visit/live in other places. To be fair, this kind of thinking exists everywhere by the born and raised. Though it does seem especially strong in NE Ohio. The amount of people FROM HERE who've stared dumbfounded at us like we're aliens, asking "why did you move here?" is just weird. I'm talking our realtors, nurses/doctors, waitresses, plumbers/electricians, etc.
I reply, "we're economic migrants".
Like, I get that CLE has been through a lot of hard times, it's pretty obvious. And there is still a ton of work to do. However, do you not realize how expensive other mid-sized and large cities are? We couldn't afford to live in the nice areas of the Bay Area, Minneapolis, Chicago or even Madison, WI. It's prohibitively expensive for young families. For the price of a 1 bedroom in pretty rough areas there, we bought a nice sized house in a very safe/quiet east suburb here. Now we take a 5 minute drive to University Circle, visit awesome museums, have access to really good health care facilities, etc. And we're like 20 minutes to downtown where I can easily catch a football/baseball/basketball game, go to a great play, visit the lakefront, etc. Just got back from the Westside Market actually and it's awesome! And we're surrounded by great shopping amenities too.
My neighbor mentioned to me that CLE suffers major "brain drain" though. The manufacturing base left. The brightest of their kids went off to college and then never came back. Companies see no value in rooting foot here because of that, and of course the high taxes. So what's left is a large concentration of low to lower-middle class workers and an rapidly aging population. This is a real problem that the area has to figure out. How do you attract young, vibrant minds without a major university or booming tech sector?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HueysBack
Bay Area (22 years) - Such a beautiful region with so much going on and so much to do. I lived all around (Berkeley, Oakland, Walnut Creek, SF, Richmond). Very liberal and diverse. Very artsy and open minded. There is a weird "I'm too cool" arrogant vibe throughout the area that when mixed with its transient nature is pretty alienating though. Also, the economic disparity is just horrible. Creates a very palpable tension that seems always ready to 'explode'. The rest of the nation doesn't realize how rough it is beyond the wealthy enclaves and more touristy areas. Oakland can barely afford to stay running, police won't show up to anything less than murder or an active shooter, meanwhile a global epicenter of wealth is literally on the other side of the bridge. Just sick. Even inside the city of SF, so much poverty and homelessness. Again, it's a beautiful region and a wonderful place to grow up if you're well off -- with being immersed in technology and culture -- but the entire area is so prohibitively expensive that it's cannibalizing itself. If you're not top 5%, you're free-falling.
Chicago (2 years) - Downtown and lakefront are just gorgeous. The north side has some awesome culture. It's such a humongous city though. I honestly feel their rush hour traffic is way worse than SF's. And there isn't anywhere great to live that's both affordable and safe. The taxes are crazy and the politics are broken. Not a place I'd buy a house and settle down. But I did meet my wife there!
NYC/Brooklyn (8 months) - Okay... another big city. Big mistake. Way too much happening all at once for the more laid back Cali guy I am. On to the next...
Madison, WI (6 years) - Went opposite to NYC. Madison's a very special little town. It's a capitol city and home to a major university (UW), so think Columbus but smaller and less sprawly, and even more liberal. Centered on an isthmus with two nice sized lakes on either side, May - October is gorgeous. Winter come... I thought Chicago was cold... boy it can be brutal. It does have a strong small community vibe (MSA is 500k?) and the downtown is seeing some considerable development. Just not a lot going on outside of the UW, and it's also entirely NOT diverse which wasn't always too pleasant. Some weird racial dynamics for such a "liberal" place. Housing was also surprisingly expensive. Couldn't justify buying a 1,200 sqft bungalow in a B area of Madison, WI for $300,000.
Minneapolis (1 year) - Did you hear "cold"? Think "Holy Polar Vortex Peter, Am I Alive?" Another cool, hip, liberal city. Reminded me a bit of the bay with how artsy and fun it is. Surprisingly diverse too. Probably the best Income vs COL ratios I've experienced as well. Overall, it's great place... except it's tooo cold. And the housing selection in our price range kinda sucked. Basically was like Madison on steroids, in every single way.
Cleveland (8 months and counting) - Yes... all of my friends and family thought I lost my mind. "Cleveland? Didn't their river catch on fire?" Hahaha... but my wife and I spent almost 2 years traveling around looking for a nice sized city to settle down and buy a house in, and CLE Rocks. I tell everyone, "we are economic migrants" because the COL here is so low compared to other places, but honestly, CLE has so much potential. We really wanted to go south and escape the cold, however there was just too much sprawl for us urban dwellers in those cities. Plus after my wife experienced 115 degree days... and snakes, back to the north we went. We fled Indianapolis one night because we hated it so much and drove straight to Cincy and then Columbus. Our original plan was to head towards Pittsburgh, where I've got family, but a complete stranger recommended we spend a day in Cedar Point and then head into CLE.
That night we drove into CLE down 90 through West Lake and got off near Rocky River. We took Detroit Ave all the way into downtown. Somewhere around Lakewood all my wife kept saying was, "Wow, this is really cute. Is this Cleveland?" We got a room at the Marriott downtown, walked around public square, through Terminal Tower and around to East 4th where we ate at Mable's BBQ and then caught a show at the House of Blues. On the way back to our room we walked through the Arcade and by the time we got back to our room we both agreed we should stay for awhile. That night I hopped onto realtor.com and screamed multiple times, "Do you see how cheap this house is!!??"
Honestly, it seems CLE's reputation around the nation is well deserved in many ways, especially when considering the entirety of CLE proper. It actually is really saddening because you can see what this city could have been if not for uber greedy businessmen and corrupt, lazy politicians. This place has so many redeeming qualities, but still such a long way to go. Like decades, not years. Not sure we'll stay here forever...
But here's the thing...
My sister's mortgage, house bills and property taxes in the Bay Area -- in just one year of payments -- cost nearly as much as our entire house costs in CLE Heights. Read that again! And our houses are the same size (though she has a pool overlooking mountains and we have a view of some old ladies pink awning that hasn't been painted since the 1950's). Add that to us living next to all the greatness that University Circle offers and just a 15 minute drive (with zero traffic) to downtown, and 25 to the Westside Market, and we're both very happy for the moment. Given a few strong wins in the business column, the right development projects could really make this city boom. Of course that will mean gentrification... but we could use some of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HueysBack
You're partially making a good point. Slow and steady wins the race. And Cleveland doesn't need to rush to contend with Chicago, Miami, SF, Dallas, LA, etc. Nor should it try. A strong, vibrant Cleveland would be really good. It has the culture, location and infrastructure to support great.
Throwing up a bunch of high rises and handing out tax breaks to mega corporations or emerging industries (like many cities seem to be favoring) -- just for the sake of short-term growth -- yields disastrous consequences.
Not that I think there is any risk of this kind of "boom" happening here anytime soon.
That would take distributed job growth, creative city planning, integrated community building, and most importantly, lots of smart, young people.
There are real demographic issues here that when graphed against national/global economic trends... do not look great. It's not old people that's been fleeing NEO, it's the young people.
Pittsburg committed itself to reinvention much earlier and it shows.
Cleveland could pick up the pace. In fact, it must. The slow gentrification/revitalization of downtown, tremont, ohio city and lakewood is not enough to ward off the more obvious challenges we face both on a local level, but also on a national/global scale as well.
It's a nice start, but it's just a start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HueysBack
Yup, 100% agree across the board. A lot of these demographic problems are only going to get worse too. I would actually argue that becoming a "boom town" in the modern era... the risks far outweigh the net positives. I mean, contrasted to the boom eras of the industrial and consumer ages that gave rise to rust-belt cities and their established middle-classes -- and all the resultant carnage of its fall we've seen the past (?) 3 or 4 decades -- these new "boom towns" and their mega-disparities in top 10% and bottom 90% of wealth are especially dangerous.
The acceleration of AI/Machine Learning/Automation across sectors, the continued contraction and consolidation of global and national economies, aging populations in almost every developed nation, the rise of India and China's massive middle-classes, climate change, etc, etc. At some point, I see most of these newer "boom towns" in the US flip rather violently. Signs are already there.
So again, slow and steady. I would, however, like to see a much deeper and expansive conversation happening around here about our future. Leaving it to city hall and a few billionaires to figure out is a horrible idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QCongress83216
The poster also said that Cleveland deserved it's national rep for the lack of amenities in the city and not having enough integrated or gentrified neighborhoods.
HueysBack never criticized Cleveland for its lack of amenities in this thread. Quite the opposite, he praised the city's amenities, and especially the quality/cost standard of living offered to Cleveland residents.
Once he said that the city lacked a major university. That's an arguably inaccurate statement as Case Western is a top 40 national university, as ranked by U.S. News & World Report, and the only one in Ohio. Case Western also is the 37th ranked research university, one notch behind Ohio State, and ahead of the likes of Penn State, Univ. of Pittsburgh, Indiana University, and Washington University in St. Louis.
The Cleveland Clinic also has a significant research budget, which has resulted in the creation of Explorys, subsequently purchased by IBM resulting in the location of the IBM Explorys division of IBM Watson Health in Cleveland.
As HueysBack is new to Cleveland, I'm not certain how familiar he is with Cleveland.
HueysBack had some interesting thoughts, to which I'm more than sympathetic, about the demographic challenges facing Cleveland and even the nation in its entirety.
Where did he discuss the lack of integration in Cleveland?
Apart from the city's demographic challenges, which perhaps has reached an inflection point, he said Cleveland's gentrification alone wasn't sufficient to elevate the city as rapidly as he would think is needed.
Again, HueysBack is new to Cleveland. If he had seen the city 30, 20, even 10 years ago, he likely would reassess the rate of change that is taking place. E.g., he appreciates the University Circle of today, likely not knowing that it has benefited from well over $1 billion of development in the last decade, including the $350 million renovation and expansion of the Cleveland Museum of Art, and from the $200 million Healthline bus rapid project. The East Flats didn't exist a decade ago.
When I consider Cleveland in 1980 compared to today, it's shocking, truly shocking.
The poster also said that Cleveland deserved it's national rep for the lack of amenities in the city and not having enough integrated or gentrified neighborhoods. I was joking about how he was spoiled by the more amenities in the other cities he lived in. Just sarcasm.
I don’t believe the poster said that. You seemed to have cherry picked words, misinterpreted them and then used your usual “just sarcasm” and/or “just joking” response to what the poster wrote. I think you are reading into this what you want to see.
No one is saying Cleveland is perfect. No one is saying it doesn’t need improvement or has a way to go. But you seem obsessed only seeing the negative with a determination to drag others down with with your negativity. It doesn’t look as if that is happening though.
Asking if people have an inferiority complex because of a perceived notion of how outsiders see your city and state is an odd question to begin with. An inferiority complex is a term for a psychological condition. I doubt that would cause the onset of it. But if someone does have this condition for any reason to the point where they can’t let it go, I would think they need to get help.
As the thread continues, remember to remain calm and respectful. Also remember you can put specific members on ignore if their opinions make you angry.
Yac.
Yeah I certainly wasn't trashing CLE, the opposite in fact. I now see what Minervah is getting on you about... how did you pull overall negatives out of my posts?
And WRNative is 100% spot-on. I am new here, with an outsiders perspective. I am also very unaware of the extent to CLE's massive turnaround. 1B in Uni Circle? WOW!!! These tidbits definitely shift/inform my opinions on CLE's trends.
Also... spoiled? Yes I've lived in some very wealthy metro's... but mostly in the ghetto's and lower-middle class neighborhoods. You know what living in North Richmond, CA is like? Or the South Side of Chicago? Nothing to be envious about. I'm not even sure what else to say about it... I lived in small apartments around virtual food deserts in these cities (zero amenities) and now I own a home and have like 4 or 5 nice grocery stores with 5 minutes of me. Plus two luxury shopping centers a short drive away. Not to mention all that Uni Circle offers. My QOL here is 1000% better.
Look, I have noticed the "inferiority complex" in CLE that you questioned about -- and that you seem to be suffering from. I told you it was strange because it is largely unwarranted (imo). Yes, CLE has a rough history (hence my reputation comment) and some serious issues that it still needs to iron out -- and that I'm still learning about fully myself (see above).
But my point was, so do all of these "nicer" places! I mean, damn, I moved here from those places after all! Can we let this thread die now??
PS. And in rereading my long post where I mentioned CLE could use some gentrification... that needs more context and shouldn't be taken outright as it stands. Better left for a more focused conversation on CLE's future.
Last edited by HueysBack; 04-17-2018 at 09:04 AM..
The mistake most places make is putting their eggs in one industry basket thinking those eggs will last forever.
When Portland lost the logging industry it was a pretty depressed, nothing much town. Lots of character but little else. The shipping industry was holding it together. Then almost overnight it became a tech town. That’s what made it what it is today. Kind of the same with Seattle although being a larger city, Seattle was always in better shape and more importantly more industrially diversified.
So now, if the tech industry wanes or moves where does Portland go? They have tried to attract a more diversified business base but have never succeeded very well. Time after time they have lost bids on large companies that would bring a number of jobs to the area. They just don’t seem to have the ability to succeed in negotiating deals.
The Rust Belt cities depended upon their steel mills, automobile factories and manufacturing facilities for decades. No one ever thought it would be any other way. But it happened.
So now those cities trying to build themselves up again can look to other successful cities not only to see what they have done to get there but what they haven’t done. Those that have continued to put all their eggs in one basket are asking for failure again somewhere down the line. We should neither envy nor emulate them. Instead we should try to diversify our industries so that we are not dependent on just one in the event that one may someday disappear as inevitably seems to happen.
Portland has a racial diversity problem. So it will never be as large as cities that do not have that problem. One interesting thing about Portland is that there are more Asians than there are Blacks, although the difference is slight. As successful as Portland was in promoting an eclectic, weird image to the world their successes could be the same thing that holds them back. I have also heard that Seattle has a similar problem but it is a larger city so those issues should be easier to navigate there than they are in a city like Portland. The Northwest, in general, has an image of cultural diversity that exists in the idiosyncrasy of a lack of racial integration, considering the progressive nature of the area. No doubt if (Portland) could have their way it would be a city of millions of Caucasians but in this day and age that is unlikely to happen.
The Rust Belt has unusually high taxes. Companies do not want to relocate there due to this and a lot of the tech companies that were there, such as NCR when it based out of Dayton, OH, move to the South where they can avoid unions, taxes, and a lot of the other baggage that comes with being in the Rust Belt, such as aging infrastructure, segregation, etc.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We got a room at the Marriott downtown, walked around public square, through Terminal Tower and around to East 4th where we ate at Mable's BBQ and then caught a show at the House of Blues. On the way back to our room we walked through the Arcade and by the time we got back to our room we both agreed we should stay for awhile. That night I hopped onto realtor.com and screamed multiple times, "Do you see how cheap this house is!!??" 
. You're used to big, glamorous cities because you lived in those cities most of your life so Cleveland is a culture shock to you (correct me if I'm wrong). So of course, Cleveland isn't gonna measure up to Chicago, the Bay Area, Minneapolis, etc. sorry Cleveland isn't one of those cities. Also, I read articles and comments on how people hate Silicon Valley being in the Bay despite the fact it's the main reason that the Bay Area is thriving.
You know what living in North Richmond, CA is like? Or the South Side of Chicago? Nothing to be envious about. I'm not even sure what else to say about it... I lived in small apartments around virtual food deserts in these cities (zero amenities) and now I own a home and have like 4 or 5 nice grocery stores with 5 minutes of me. Plus two luxury shopping centers a short drive away. Not to mention all that Uni Circle offers. My QOL here is 1000% better.
