Trying to decide how to pay for College.

[NINE BALL]

Originally Posted by slim04

That isn't true. I am familar with U of I, as I used to be on a recruiting committee at a Big 4 in Chicago. I seriously doubt more than 1/4 of the students there get Big 4 offers. That is a gigantic school with 400 accounting students in each class. A 3.0 GPA at a school with rampant grade inflation probably puts the OP in the bottom 10-25% of his class. Illinois isn't a weed out school, once you are in everyone pretty much gets at least B-'s in their classes with minimal effort.

1)He is going to really struggle to find a decent job through OCI with those stats and a full time job isn't an excuse for poor grades. My friend used to be a recruiter for Grant Thornton and I don't think they ever took anyone below 3.3 GPA (which is about the 50 percentile).

2)Seriously, your best shot at getting a job at UIUC is to get very good grades and then get an internship. Instate tuition at Illinois isn't going to make you pile on a lot of debt, but your ability to get a top tier job is severely limited by your school performance.

Probably 1/3 to 1/2 of UIUC grads really struggle to find jobs or end up at mid-tier firms or companies where the pay and opportunities are much lower.

The 3.0 Average GPA was held while working a full-time job. If you saw my transcript you would probably chuckle. To quote my academic advisor: "Well Chris, you're uh...you're pretty consistent with your marks here!" But seriously, you think that GPA's going to stay there without the stress and time lapse of working? If it does, then I'll have to blame myself for being dumb or just plain lazy. I see no reason why it won't climb into the mid 3's by graduation. And if a Bachelor's with a mid 3.XX GPA from U.I-U.C is "poor", well gotdang it I guess I'm just screwed.

2)That can be said to just about everyone at any school, anywhere. What student has a good shot at a good job if he does poorly and doesn't get an internship? Perhaps the guys up at The Chicago Campus (U.I @ Chicago) get more looks due to location? That's understandable. The guys who are related to/well associated with the Partners/Associates at top tier firms? Them too. But for most people I'd agree that job prospects are based on academic performance, extra-curricular act's, and internships.

[slim04]

Originally Posted by NINE BALL

The 3.0 Average GPA was held while working a full-time job. If you saw my transcript you would probably chuckle. To quote my academic advisor: "Well Chris, you're uh...you're pretty consistent with your marks here!" But seriously, you think that GPA's going to stay there without the stress and time lapse of working? If it does, then I'll have to blame myself for being dumb or just plain lazy. I see no reason why it won't climb into the mid 3's by graduation. And if a Bachelor's with a mid 3.XX GPA from U.I-U.C is "poor", well gotdang it I guess I'm just screwed.

2)That can be said to just about everyone at any school, anywhere. What student has a good shot at a good job if he does poorly and doesn't get an internship? Perhaps the guys up at The Chicago Campus (U.I @ Chicago) get more looks due to location? That's understandable. The guys who are related to/well associated with the Partners/Associates at top tier firms? Them too. But for most people I'd agree that job prospects are based on academic performance, extra-curricular act's, and internships.

Your advisor seems like a tool. You really need to make an appointment with career services so they can give the straight dope.

Are you doing the 4 year BS or 5 year Masters program? It makes a huge deal. Hiring decisions for the 4 year students are made in the fall of your senior year, so it is just based on your grades at the end of your junior year. You basically need straight A's your junior year to get to a 3.3 GPA to have any chance at a Big 4 job (or a 3.5 GPA if you get straight A's both your jr and sr years and then get a masters). Even at 3.3 GPA, those that get hired at that GPA are usually campus leaders or those that have incredible personalities. No one is going to give you any leeway for poor grades because of full time work. They would think it was impressive if you had a 3.7 GPA, but they aren't going to extrapolate a poor GPA into a good one because of other time demands (i.e. work, family, etc.). That's just how it is.

Your competition is just better students at other schools. A Big 4 firm might go 30% deep at UIUC, but only 10% deep at Depaul.

I'm not saying you can't get a job, but the top 1/3 gets jobs at the Big 4, the Next 3, and Fortune 500 firms. For Companies, the best jobs are those that have a fast track program where they rotate you in a different position every few years until you end up as a manager in some function. Companies like these are the ones that recruit in OCI. The ones that don't do OCI are usually staff accounting positions where you have to fight yourself up and may or may not succeed. Most staff accounting jobs are like that and don't have a career path laid out for you. You could be stuck at the staff level for decades. So obviously, it is much better to get a good public accounting job (firms that audit large companies, not small businesses) or a good company job. It just makes life a lot easier later on and will open more doors.

That's why it is better to do whatever it takes now to put yourself in the right position. If a full time job doesn't let you ace your classes, you should seriously consider quitting. That $25K is going to be meaningless if you are stuck in a dead end job 10 years from now.

UPDATE: You should seriously consider joining a business fraternity or campus business organizations. What I just said in my posts should be common knowledge to upper classmen who would have told you all this a long time ago (maybe as early as freshman).

[slim04]

Originally Posted by NINE BALL

The 3.0 Average GPA was held while working a full-time job. If you saw my transcript you would probably chuckle. To quote my academic advisor: "Well Chris, you're uh...you're pretty consistent with your marks here!" But seriously, you think that GPA's going to stay there without the stress and time lapse of working? If it does, then I'll have to blame myself for being dumb or just plain lazy. I see no reason why it won't climb into the mid 3's by graduation. And if a Bachelor's with a mid 3.XX GPA from U.I-U.C is "poor", well gotdang it I guess I'm just screwed.

2)That can be said to just about everyone at any school, anywhere. What student has a good shot at a good job if he does poorly and doesn't get an internship? Perhaps the guys up at The Chicago Campus (U.I @ Chicago) get more looks due to location? That's understandable. The guys who are related to/well associated with the Partners/Associates at top tier firms? Them too. But for most people I'd agree that job prospects are based on academic performance, extra-curricular act's, and internships.

It's about class rank. Chicago firms know that 3.9 is about the top 10%, 3.7 about the top 15%, 3.5 is about the top 25%, 3.3 is around the 50 percentile, and 3.0 is around the 75 percentile. A 3.3 GPA at other schools would be 15%, but not at Illinois. Seriously, that grade inflation at Illinois in their business college is just nasty. For example, I have yet to see a marketing major resume from Illinois with a GPA less than 3.5, often they are near 4.0.

Interestingly enough, the further away you look for a job from Chicago, the Companies don't have this knowledge and think a 3.3 GPA is an honors level grade and a 3.0 GPA in around the 50 percentile. But those places aren't doing OCI and you have to work much harder to get an interview.

[NINE BALL]

Originally Posted by slim04

Your advisor seems like a tool. You really need to make an appointment with career services so they can give the straight dope.

Are you doing the 4 year BS or 5 year Masters program? It makes a huge deal. Hiring decisions for the 4 year students are made in the fall of your senior year, so it is just based on your grades at the end of your junior year. You basically need straight A's your junior year to get to a 3.3 GPA to have any chance at a Big 4 job (or a 3.5 GPA if you get straight A's both your jr and sr years and then get a masters). Even at 3.3 GPA, those that get hired at that GPA are usually campus leaders or those that have incredible personalities. No one is going to give you any leeway for poor grades because of full time work. They would think it was impressive if you had a 3.7 GPA, but they aren't going to extrapolate a poor GPA into a good one because of other time demands (i.e. work, family, etc.). That's just how it is.

Your competition is just better students at other schools. A Big 4 firm might go 30% deep at UIUC, but only 10% deep at Depaul.

I'm not saying you can't get a job, but the top 1/3 gets jobs at the Big 4, the Next 3, and Fortune 500 firms. For Companies, the best jobs are those that have a fast track program where they rotate you in a different position every few years until you end up as a manager in some function. Companies like these are the ones that recruit in OCI. The ones that don't do OCI are usually staff accounting positions where you have to fight yourself up and may or may not succeed. Most staff accounting jobs are like that and don't have a career path laid out for you. You could be stuck at the staff level for decades. So obviously, it is much better to get a good public accounting job (firms that audit large companies, not small businesses) or a good company job. It just makes life a lot easier later on and will open more doors.

That's why it is better to do whatever it takes now to put yourself in the right position. If a full time job doesn't let you ace your classes, you should seriously consider quitting. That $25K is going to be meaningless if you are stuck in a dead end job 10 years from now.

UPDATE: You should seriously consider joining a business fraternity or campus business organizations. What I just said in my posts should be common knowledge to upper classmen who would have told you all this a long time ago (maybe as early as freshman).

Thanks for the dope hit, slim. GPA calculators are all over the place, but basic math applied to the situation puts me at a 3.6(highest possible) if carrying a 4.0 for the remainder of my undergrad period. Master's degree is next, for the CPA req's. Admissions for that is GPA/Test/Work based(as usual). And if they want to delve that deep into course-work/grades, I wonder if they would look twice at my Accounting GPA? Straight A's in all Introductory/Junior/Senior level Accounting classes would be different than A's in other areas with a few B's sprinkled into the major GPA, no?

Indeed, a 3.5/3.6 overall isn't stellar by any means(for a CBA grad). No other way to put, like you said. Not going to hold my head down and mope about it though, thats for sure!

Also true that competition is better coming from other schools. U of C, DePaul, Roosevelt, etc, but I don't have money for to stave off the cost those programs. No issue with that either, just how it is.

As I said, with the freed up time from not working, there's an opportunity for me to join clubs, and organizations, do internships to beef up my business work experience for employers. If I do all that and still come out with a crappy job, well hey, I can say I tried my best. Do I think I'm gong to come out with a dead end job- or even worse- no job with a Bachelor's Degree in Accounting from UI-UC? No. But I'm sure there's people who thought the same and have been disappointed. I've still got a lucrative trade to rely on though, whereas some don't.

It's common knowledge that the best of the best, get the best. No upper class-men or advisor should have to tell anyone else that. But I do think that someone who gets stuck in a dead end job(for 10 years) while they hold a respectable degree from a school with a solid rep, can only hold themselves accountable for letting that happen to them.

*edit. Latin Honors for the UI system starts at 3.5 for *** laude, 3.75 for magna, and 3.9 for summa. If that many folks are getting latin honors, that means bad things for a lot of graduates from lesser schools, let alone the same program. 3.6 would put me at *** laude. Like I said, 3.0 ain't dandy for now, but it's not staying there!

Again I'd like to say thanks to everybody for the input, lot of different views, all expressed objectively/subjectively and respectfully. So often these threads get de-railed....

[slim04]

I think you'll still get a job, but not a fast track one if you are in the bottom half of the class. When I say a dead end job, I am talking about a staff accounting position that does not have a set career path laid out.

In public accounting, you are staff, then senior in a year or two, then manager after 5, and then senior manager after 7 or 8, and if you are lucky partner after 10-14 years. However, if you are a manager or senior manager, you can slide right into a corporate management position or even a controller or CFO for a smaller organization. Then you work your way up to controller or CFO or lateral to larger organizations.

In companies, it is harder to move up that fast. There are three reasons: 1) you generally lack the diversity of experience and fast pace of work you get in audit; 2) skill development is haphazard at companies; and 3) you have competition from public accounting that want to lateral over.

In companies there is just too much peter principle going on. You get hired to do a specific accounting function, say reconciling investment accounts. You might be great at that and know how to do it well, but it is just a tiny slice of what hits the financial statements. You have to be aggressive is learning a variety of skills, so you can eventually move up. Most companies are terrible with professional development and just hire supervisors or managers from public accounting than train their employees to move up. That is what I mean by dead end jobs. You can be promoted or move from function to function, but you are responsible for it and no one may help you develop your career path. The ambitious move around a lot and eventually up. The non-ambitous stay where they are and just get modest raises most year. Still starting out $40K and rising up to $60K to $80K over a career will still get you a middle class lifestyle in most places, but I would find it hard to do the same thing over and over for years. I know a lot of deadweight at the IRS with $80 to $100K a year salaries that are basically low level supervisors after 10 to 15 years. But they also just work 40 to 50 hours a week, so it is not a bad lifestyle. It's just they'll never get jobs in management on the outside.

So if you want a chance at higher level accounting jobs in the future, it is just easier to do it from public accounting or high quality corporate jobs. Unfortunately, so many students want those jobs that they are very selective.

Good luck. Also, when I meant advice from upper classmen is that they can usually tell you exactly the criteria for Big 4 hiring is. I knew as a sophomore, so I stopped screwing around and concentrated on getting A's, joined the right clubs and got active, so by the time internship interviewing came around, I had the grades, leadership positions, and knew exactly what they were looking for. It was a huge advantage. When you know a 3.0 or a 3.3 at UIUC may not even get you a Big 4 interview, it really motivates you to study hard.