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One quirk about Colorado Springs politics is that the conservatives constantly argue for less government spending.....
Unless it would actually apply locally.
For a community that gets about one third of its payroll from the Federal government to be sooo against government spending smack of hypocrisy.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
I would say stupidity and a lack of principles, rather than hypocrisy.
Might also be a side dish of sour grapes on the dinner table of those people who are whiners...
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Actually conservatives are perfectly fine with Defense spending. Just not food stamps for those pesky single mothers.
But I digress.
My feelings on the military are mixed. I was an Army spouse 2007-2014. I attempted to participate in some of the FRG (Family Readiness Group) activities alongside my husband at first. I was not pleased by what I saw, and made no friends in those circles. I was happy that we had already chosen not to live on post, and that the choice was available for us. What did I not like about the culture? Well, so many of the enlisted are just really young and I was/am already out of my 20's. I'm a strong, hard working, and independant woman. I'm not interested in being a "dependent" even if technically that's what the Army considered me...I worked full time and pulled my weight. My impression of some of those wives were that they sat at home, gossipped, and didn't properly supervise their small children at some of those events. They were really young, short on both wisdom and class, in my opinion. There was also a lot of infidelity, both the men and the women, and I didn't want to hear the latest on who cheated on whom. No thank you! The guys could be belligerent, "tough guy" types, with (as many say) the chips on shoulders thing going on.
On the other hand...
I think a lot of these guys really do want to be heroes. I think that there is a civic mindedness and a team ethic there, that many civilians don't have. I think that there is no one I'd rather have around if I were in some kind of danger and needed assistance, than any of a probable majority of these guys, who not only would step up and do the right thing and intervene to help or protect me, but who probably know how to do it right.
They definitely provide a lot of juice to the economy here, too. Not only in the sense of just bringing money in, but for instance...VA loans make for more opportunities for homeownership. Even if they wait until they're out and either stay or come back here to settle down, they have access to a loan type that makes it much easier for them to buy houses. Higher levels of homeownership make for more stable and well kept neighborhoods. Out of all the places I've lived, the quality of neighborhoods overall is higher in CoS than any of them, in my opinion (more good neighborhoods than bad, and even the bad aren't THAT bad.) I think that the military presence and that money probably has something to do with it.
My impression of some of those wives were that they sat at home, gossipped, and didn't properly supervise their small children at some of those events. They were really young, short on both wisdom and class, in my opinion.
I have several "stay home" military wives in my family and take great exception to what you wrote. The fact that you are a working woman doesn't make you a superior or classier as a woman.
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I think that there is a civic mindedness and a team ethic there, that many civilians don't have. I think that there is no one I'd rather have around if I were in some kind of danger and needed assistance, than any of a probable majority of these guys, who not only would step up and do the right thing and intervene to help or protect me, but who probably know how to do it right.
So, these folks are beneath you in class and culture, but you'll run to them if you were in trouble?
I am generally not keen on living near large military bases, but that mostly has to do with having a large number of single, young men plus "adult" beverages/entertainment being available in copious amounts. It's the same reason I avoid large college towns. Single, bored young men + alcohol = high numbers of unfortunate incidents and, yes, crimes.
I am somebody who graduated from elite universities with advanced degrees and has a very comfortable six figure income. I've kept company with well known politicians and the super rich on occasions. But I would never look down on military personnel, even the enlisted, and especially never their stay-home wives (or husbands) who bear a tremendous load especially while their spouses are deployed. I have many such people among my family and friends.
I hope your feeling is not indicative of any serious tension between the military and non-military residents in COS. Because if it were, I'd have to re-consider my future plans there.
I hope your feeling is not indicative of any serious tension between the military and non-military residents in COS. Because if it were, I'd have to re-consider my future plans there.
A little perspective.
40 years ago, I showed up in COS as a brand new Cadet at the Academy. Over those 4 years, I never sensed any tension between military and non-military members of our community. In fact, I felt very much welcomed into the community.
Just about 20 years ago, I returned to COS. Still in uniform...assigned to Peterson AFB. I didn't live on base, but in town. A few years after that, I took the uniform off, but remained in COS. I still haven't got even a whiff of any animosity between the military and non-military members of our fair city.
Of course, you're adding a disproportionate number of young males into the mix, and that might cause some resentment or problems in the bar/club scene. But, that's a pretty small subset of our overall community. In my experience, the military is welcomed in Colorado Springs with open arms, which is why so many folks like me decide to set roots here after retiring.
I have several "stay home" military wives in my family and take great exception to what you wrote. The fact that you are a working woman doesn't make you a superior or classier as a woman.
So, these folks are beneath you in class and culture, but you'll run to them if you were in trouble?
I am generally not keen on living near large military bases, but that mostly has to do with having a large number of single, young men plus "adult" beverages/entertainment being available in copious amounts. It's the same reason I avoid large college towns. Single, bored young men + alcohol = high numbers of unfortunate incidents and, yes, crimes.
I am somebody who graduated from elite universities with advanced degrees and has a very comfortable six figure income. I've kept company with well known politicians and the super rich on occasions. But I would never look down on military personnel, even the enlisted, and especially never their stay-home wives (or husbands) who bear a tremendous load especially while their spouses are deployed. I have many such people among my family and friends.
I hope your feeling is not indicative of any serious tension between the military and non-military residents in COS. Because if it were, I'd have to re-consider my future plans there.
So you, as a non military spouse, are chiding a military wife for her views on other military spouses? Subjective experience can sometimes outweigh objective experience and a person who is approximately 10 years older than the other spouses in an FRG is going to have different observations and take-away from their interactions with the FRG. It's also dependent on whether the spouse dealt primarily with spouses of enlisted or officers, there's a world of difference there.
There's also the phrase, "Joe is dumb" to describe junior enlisted. While a derogatory stereotype, there is a lot of truth to it and how young men and women behave.
Just about 20 years ago, I returned to COS. Still in uniform...assigned to Peterson AFB. I didn't live on base, but in town. A few years after that, I took the uniform off, but remained in COS. I still haven't got even a whiff of any animosity between the military and non-military members of our fair city.
Glad to hear it.
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Originally Posted by wong21fr
So you, as a non military spouse, are chiding a military wife for her views on other military spouses? Subjective experience can sometimes outweigh objective experience and a person who is approximately 10 years older than the other spouses in an FRG is going to have different observations and take-away from their interactions with the FRG. It's also dependent on whether the spouse dealt primarily with spouses of enlisted or officers, there's a world of difference there.
There's also the phrase, "Joe is dumb" to describe junior enlisted. While a derogatory stereotype, there is a lot of truth to it and how young men and women behave.
1. I am not going to talk about my military and government service experience.
2. I understand and know all that you listed above. But "Sonic Spork" wrote much more than what you listed above, including digs at stay-home mothers, making them sound like leaches by way of comparison to herself ("I'm a strong, hard working, and independant woman... I worked full time and pulled my weight" and "they [stay-at home wives] sat at home, gossipped, and didn't properly supervise their small children").
Her story wasn't simply some personal observations and anecdotes. It was both heavy on generalization about those she despises and full of self-congratulation ("Oooh, I was so much classier, wiser, more independent and stronger than they!"), topped with a gratuitous attack on conservatives not caring about single mothers (I am fiercely conservative and I AM for smaller government, including the size of the military). As someone who was raised by a military stay-at home mother and someone whose entire extended family has a long, deeply ingrained history of military and government service as well as charity, I found her comments arrogant and demeaning.
As for the enlisted... I got news for you. Teach a class or two at a university (I have) and see exactly how disciplined and wise the young college set is. But I still wouldn't look down on them as inferior and unclassy human beings -- merely as those still in development who can benefit from advice and leadership of those older and wiser. I wouldn't dismiss them and just check out.
Glad to hear it.1. I am not going to talk about my military and government service experience.
That's fine, but your personal experience does lend credence or lack thereof to your reaction to Sonic Sporks views and commentary. A military spouse in the last decade has an experience that is akin to a career servicemember's spouse during Vietnam- that's a big time gap in the collective experience of the military community.
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2. I understand and know all that you listed above. But "Sonic Spork" wrote much more than what you listed above, including digs at stay-home mothers, making them sound like leaches by way of comparison to herself ("I'm a strong, hard working, and independant woman... I worked full time and pulled my weight" and "they [stay-at home wives] sat at home, gossipped, and didn't properly supervise their small children").
That's her opinion of the spouses that she dealt with in a small group and she's perfectly entitled to it. Maybe it was a particularly poor group of spouses and there wasn't the small cohort of "super" spouses to keep everything running. My question would be where the spouses of the mid and senior leadership were in her FRG? Where were the spouses of the SSG's and SFC's? Where was the 1SG's spouse? Heck, the CO's? That the FRG has almost all 20-something spouses means there was a distinct lack of mentorship in that group. Maybe Sonic Spork could have provided such mentorship, but if her spouse wasn't in a leadership position that would have made it more difficult.
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Her story wasn't simply some personal observations and anecdotes. It was both heavy on generalization about those she despises and full of self-congratulation ("Oooh, I was so much classier, wiser, more independent and stronger than they!"), topped with a gratuitous attack on conservatives not caring about single mothers (I am fiercely conservative and I AM for smaller government, including the size of the military). As someone who was raised by a military stay-at home mother and someone whose entire extended family has a long, deeply ingrained history of military and government service as well as charity, I found her comments arrogant and demeaning.
So her comments hit home. That's perfectly understandable.
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As for the enlisted... I got news for you. Teach a class or two at a university (I have) and see exactly how disciplined and wise the young college set is. But I still wouldn't look down on them as inferior and unclassy human beings -- merely as those still in development who can benefit from advice and leadership of those older and wiser. I wouldn't dismiss them and just check out.
Spend a decade in uniform leading and mentoring these young men and women and you can see how disciplined and wise they are, or not. Using the example of those individuals who elect to use their educational benefits during their time in uniform is going to result in self-selection bias. These are the individuals who you don't have to worry about. They are self-starting, motivated, with clear career goals. These are the 20% that make life easy and you would love to focus all of your time on because of the nearly constant positive result from your mentoring.
Then there's the 20% who suck up your time with their behavioral issues, poor decision making, and total lack of self-guidance. The hours spent trying to correct the behavior and mentoring them to stop eating paint chips (or other poor decisions) is enough time to write 1-3 dissertations. These are the guys who you want to finish their initial enlistment and send them out of the door as quickly as possible. Or at least hope that you won't get a weekend call from them or the SDNCO.
The final 60% are the ones where you need to spend all of your time. The results are not as immediate or certain as the upper 20%, but this is the group where leadership, training, and mentoring can have a huge impact. They are also the main component of the team that you need to function well if you are to accomplish the mission. These are the guys who, years later, might thank you for the guidance and extra time that you gave them because it did help them figure out what they wanted to do in life and how to go about doing it.
That's her opinion of the spouses that she dealt with in a small group and she's perfectly entitled to it.
Well, everyone is entitled to his (or in this specific case, her) opinions and experiences. But it's something else entirely to generalize from one's narrow set of experiences. It's another thing still to use that narriow set of experiences to put down others and congratulate oneself for allegedly superior class and wisdom.
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My question would be where the spouses of the mid and senior leadership were in her FRG? Where were the spouses of the SSG's and SFC's? Where was the 1SG's spouse? Heck, the CO's? That the FRG has almost all 20-something spouses means there was a distinct lack of mentorship in that group. Maybe Sonic Spork could have provided such mentorship, but if her spouse wasn't in a leadership position that would have made it more difficult.
Frankly, I don't trust her claim that all others were 20-something do-nothing wives in her FRG. That's just not very likely or credible. The sense I got from her putdowns was that she showed up a few times, found herself superior, and ditched the group in a hurry.
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So her comments hit home. That's perfectly understandable.
You better believe it. While my wife worked/works (and she has graduate degrees) as Sonic Spork did, she didn't look down on the young, less educated wives and she chipped in and helped out, always. Numerous family and friends, including my father, uncles, and cousins and my very best friend, my blood-brother, had stay-home wives who did the same. Some of them still do.
If Sonic Spork were unsatisfied with her particular support group, there was a way to express that without putting an entire category of people down, complete with a gratuitous political attack. I don't understand why you seem to be going out of your way to defend her callous, arrogant, and self-superior remarks.
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These are the guys who, years later, might thank you for the guidance and extra time that you gave them because it did help them figure out what they wanted to do in life and how to go about doing it.
Being a mentor is rewarding, even when things don't work out. Knowing the spectrum of human beings, there will always the elements that will have to be cut loose for the good of all. But when you are blessed with higher education, better pay, leadership positions, more experience and, hopefully, more wisdom, it's your obligation to make the attempt even with those who are seemingly undeserving. The military is not a business (even though the officer class is filled with those with business school degrees who use business school lingo unbearably, thanks Robert McNamara). Being a commissioned officer is not the same as being a profit-minded business executive. You cut people loose when you have to, but you try to salvage them first, however hopeless it may seem at first.
To tie it back to COS, hoping to find likeminded people like what I described above is why I have been looking into moving my family to COS. If I wanted neighbors who -- with even less education than what my wife and I have -- try to act like they were better than, and disparage, other people, I'd be staying right here in the metro-DC area.
I lived and worked outside of Ft. Hood for a long time and the ONLY negative issues I had observed from enlisted young men were in the parts of town that had bars and gentlemen's clubs and those who rode ricerocket sport bikes. Then again, most guys who ride ricerockets drive like bulletproof dipsticks despite their occupation and guys who hang out in bars are.....guys who hang out in bars in general. I avoid bars and clubs like the plague anyway.
Now when I go out to eat, shop or what not, I like seeing a police officer or a (wo)man nearby in their ASU's because if I were a criminal, that would be a deterrent for me to "shop" elsewhere. Just my $0.02.
I have several "stay home" military wives in my family and take great exception to what you wrote. The fact that you are a working woman doesn't make you a superior or classier as a woman.
So, these folks are beneath you in class and culture, but you'll run to them if you were in trouble?
I am generally not keen on living near large military bases, but that mostly has to do with having a large number of single, young men plus "adult" beverages/entertainment being available in copious amounts. It's the same reason I avoid large college towns. Single, bored young men + alcohol = high numbers of unfortunate incidents and, yes, crimes.
I am somebody who graduated from elite universities with advanced degrees and has a very comfortable six figure income. I've kept company with well known politicians and the super rich on occasions. But I would never look down on military personnel, even the enlisted, and especially never their stay-home wives (or husbands) who bear a tremendous load especially while their spouses are deployed. I have many such people among my family and friends.
I hope your feeling is not indicative of any serious tension between the military and non-military residents in COS. Because if it were, I'd have to re-consider my future plans there.
I would like to respectfully address this response. I didn't have a chance over the weekend.
No, working does not make me classier or better. The fact that I actually supervised my children and kept them from running wild and damaging property in public, however, is another story. The fact that I didn't cheat on my spouse is another mark I consider to be in my favor. I was saying that I don't act like that, and don't want to keep company with those who do, and I personally witnessed that kind of thing among the young enlisted military men and wives when I first tried to participate in the FRG. Much of that, I chalk up to simple youth. People have to make their mistakes, take their hard knocks, learn and grow...I was at a different stage in my own personal road by then.
You appear to have taken my comments to indicate that, because I encountered this, and didn't approve, I am therefore saying that "all" women or people that have some similar circumstance are being tarred with the same brush by me. Not so. I'm just saying that I saw this, and I think that there is at least some of it going on with many communities made up of the very young and inexperienced, which is a demographic that can occur on bases. Are ALL like this? Absolutely not, no! And I would not run to anyone if I were in trouble. I keep myself out of trouble, pretty well, actually. I'm saying that often enough, even people who seem loud and uncouth in their casual behavior, if put to a real test, would show a hero or at least a very good person beneath that.
Also, I was having a chat with an officer's wife in the lobby of a Firestone once, all those years ago, and mentioned my concerns and why I didn't feel that I "fit" with the FRG. She said that it was the responsibility of women like me to provide a good example and positive influence, to mentor those young ladies. Well, frankly, and I'm sorry to have to be this way, I did not sign up for the military...my husband did. I supported his decision, but I had (and have) a life of my own, and am a bit too busy to play mentor to a bunch of young people. I have my own two young people to raise. I have my own causes to support. I have my own circle of friends. There are a million and one people in the world who would love to have my support, money, time, and effort. I get to choose which ones get it. Saying no to some and choosing others doesn't make me a bad person, we all have to make those choices.
And again, by saying that this may be indicative of some tension between civilians and military in the Springs, you really are trying to pidgeon-hole a whole lot of people based on the stated experience of ONE person, and that's not really very logical. I don't even have any tension with the military. I just don't choose to be involved with groups of 'em at any given time, which is still completely feasible even in a town with so many. Like any group of people, they've got pros, cons, good and bad...and we all choose who to associate with for whatever reasons matter to us.
Because tone does not convey well on the internet, I want to quickly say, if you read any tones of anger or irritation into my words, please go read them again in a spirit of calm discourse. I simply want to be clear in my message...I don't want to be misunderstood...but I'm also not trying to be defensive here.
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