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How can it (our English version) be? The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the New Testament was written in Greek over 2000 years ago based on custom, culture, and science known up to that time. It was much later translated into English with infliction from custom, culture, and science known at the time of King James.
Rich, with all due respect - that's a weak arguement. Of course you can translate things into English "verbatim".
Male is still "male" and female is still "female" no matter what language you are talking.
I think we can all agree and understand that "mucho gracias" would be translated as "thank you very much".
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Originally Posted by Stratford, Ct. Resident
I'm not following you on this.
How is the past divorce rate relevant to an attack on marriage? Are you saying that it was better years ago when women stood in an abusive/poor marriage for "the children"??? Speaking from my own experience growing up, "the children" would've been better served if the parents had parted ways. Alas, that didn't happen. We must preserve the sanctity of marriage.
Again with all due respect you are pointing to a very small % and making it the norm. Much like using "rape" in the abortion debate when .0001 abortions are actually for said cause and 99.9% are simply a from of birth control.
But I digress...to answer your question:
If said couple was staying together just for the children, it's the wrong reason and perhaps they got married without the commitment to one another they should have had.
Instead of staying together for the children, perhaps they should look to the reason in their vows. A dedication to God and each other for life.
If there was no other option on the table - what's left? You have to work it out.
Oh, and just so we are clear...the bible doesn't say you can never divorce, so that arguement of stay and get your @ss kicked doesn't fly by that standard.
Have you ever thought that marriage today has become such a joke that people do not hold to the same commitment they used to?
It used to be "till death do we part." Now it's "unless we just get sick of each other and agree to just sign the papers in a 'no fault' divorce"
There was a reason Grooms used to pass out and sweat bullets at the alter. It was a life commitment and decision.
Today it's - "well we've been living together for 4 years...I guess we should just do the paperwork".
Marriage and the commitment has been cheapened. I feel this ruling furthers that problem and makes a mockery of it.
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Originally Posted by 1979
It's so interesting how religion always arises when discussing the issue of homosexuality? Why is it we don't hear about religion when it comes to the high out of wed lock birth rate, the high divorce rate, the issue of rape (which is essentially a heterosexual issue statistically, along with domestic violence), teen pregnancy, alcoholism, drug abuse and crime? Why is it that we ignore references that women were nothing more than chattel (property to be owned) and slavery completely accepted? Why?? Probably because if your heterosexual, homosexuality is the easiest thing to comdemn, especially if you don't understand it.
Well, I bring it up and think it's very relevant to the issues you pointed out. Absolutely and totally relevant. I personally have sung the song for years that the church is a bit hypocritical on the homosexual issue. They will ignore the couple living together out of wedlock but turn their disdain towards a gay couple.
The difference for me is that I wish equal instruction to both for correction and growth.
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Originally Posted by 1979
And actually, the Bible states nothing about homosexuality per se, because the word had not been invented yet. And during the times of its many translations those "man lying with man" verses were introduced.
Well that's simply not true. Of course it does. What do you think "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another" means?
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Originally Posted by 1979
Although many clergy ignore this, let us also keep in mind this country was principally founded on "a separation of church and state."
Another falsehood. Do a little research on the subject please. We are far far far from being founded on not having religion and state cojoined. Just go look at any judicial building or the fact that congress opens with prayer still nevermind the thousands and thousands of documents and writings from our founding fathers that say otherwise.
Jefferson simply said the state would not "endorse" or "impose" a certain denomination. That's it. Read it for yourself.
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Originally Posted by brasscitybluenwhite
hmm, let me know when you make the next comment. I'll tune in if I"m not in class.
I've thought a lot about it, and I think that discussion can turn ugly. I really do. So please read my comments as a whole and understand my mindset.
I do believe it's a behavior that while not easy, can be overcome. I think causation can be found, and it's a problem to be dealt with much like alcoholism or an eating disorder or many other hardcore issues can. (I'm sure even that statement will offend some, and I hope they realize it's not my intent and I'm not saying it to be hurtful. I am simply sharing what I believe to be true.)
I would direct you to some resources that talk about dealing with homosexual feelings and how some have turned from that way and found healing on various levels.
I hope all here understand, I come at this from a very sincere, loving, heartfelt direction and not a hard "gotta convert them gays cuz God says so" mindset. Not at all. As a person who has wrestled many a demon in my life, I understand more than you think.
I think this quote says it for me better than I can:
Moreover, same-sex attractions do not change by direct action against them. In other words, they don’t go away just because a person "tries really hard" not to have them or "prays really hard" that they’ll go away. This is because same-sex attractions are almost invariably rooted in deeper issues – developing over time as a person grows up and including profound aspects of the person’s body, mind, spirit and heart. Thus, given that humans are complex beings – and human sexuality is especially complex – dealing with same-sex attraction is usually not a simple or easy undertaking.
There are many many many examples of folks turning from homosexuality. You just don't hear much about it and in fact many "ex-gays" are now being rediculed by the homosexual community - which on the surface I can see where that reaction would come from.
Exodus International - Thinking of Leaving Homosexuality? (http://exodus.to/help/?option=com_content&task=view&id=327&Itemid=147 - broken link)
"Like most psychiatrists," said Dr. Spitzer, "I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that's untrue - some people can and do change." In his new study announced May 9, 2001 at the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association, Dr. Robert L. Spitzer released the evidence for his conclusions.
PFOX - Parents and Friends of ExGays and Gays (http://www.pfox.org/spitzer.htm - broken link)
There are many many many examples of folks turning from homosexuality. You just don't hear much about it and in fact many "ex-gays" are now being rediculed by the homosexual community - which on the surface I can see where that reaction would come from.
Exodus International - Thinking of Leaving Homosexuality? (http://exodus.to/help/?option=com_content&task=view&id=327&Itemid=147 - broken link)
"Like most psychiatrists," said Dr. Spitzer, "I thought that homosexual behavior could be resisted, but sexual orientation could not be changed. I now believe that's untrue - some people can and do change." In his new study announced May 9, 2001 at the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association, Dr. Robert L. Spitzer released the evidence for his conclusions.
PFOX - Parents and Friends of ExGays and Gays (http://www.pfox.org/spitzer.htm - broken link)
So I hope that answers your question and potentially helps others in some way shape or form.
Respectfully,
Jay
There is NOTHING respectful about quoting those fringe organizations that attempt to "cure" homosexuality. Of all the posts, JViello, your is the most repugnant and disgusting. Almost all are based on the notion that homosexuality is a choice. It's not. Almost all science (real science, not psuedoscience designed to sound like its actually objective but serves to only reinforce Christian doctrine) says that homosexuality is biological. Almost all gay people will state unequivicoally that they never made a choice to be gay.
Every organization you quoted has a mission to advance a religious not scientific agenda. If your only perspective is religious, I guess this is the list that you'd come up with. I'm not sure "Focus on the Family" has cornered the market on objective scientific analysis.
Now, I'm certain your response, Jviello, will be to say that the organizations I quoted are part of some type of liberal conspiracy. That's more fiction. But I do feel for you, as you spend the time "researching" ways to change facts to fit your tight religious dogma.
PS JONAH has been refused access to most mainstream Jewish organizations and centers and repudiated by both the conservative and reform Jewish movements.
Thank you for your opinion and response. I understand that what I wrote may not be for everyone and I am sorry you were offended, but I am still entitled to believe what I wish as are you. As you can see there are also disagreements in acedemia as well regarding the subject. I would think it's up to the individual at that point to follow that which they choose.
I also didn't attack anyone there, but I do feel somewhat "attacked" by your response. That's okay though - I'm a big boy. No worries.
I do feel you highlight and example the attacks and directed anger many "ex-gays" seem to be under. I do find it ironic, that those claiming "persecution" based on "sexual orientation" then "persecute" those who claim to have changed their sexual identity.
I would think there would be a case of sincere empathy, perhaps I was wrong.
P.S. The writer of that focus article Jeff Johnston is an "ex-gay". So that's his perspective and where he comes from.
Jeff Johnston:
"Jeff struggled with homosexuality before beginning his journey out in 1986."
I'm gay, and I have no problems with it. I never made a conscious decision, but I'll concede it's impossible to know all my unconscious decisions. It's how I am, not who I am. I will never say, "I'd never choose to be gay", because it's all I know. I have no basis for comparison. More importantly, the statement concedes my inferiority. I have struggled to love myself, and now I do, so concessions to the moral superiority of heterosexuality is not an option. I'm an equal.
On the other hand, religion is definitely a conscious choice. Every person makes the conscious decision to follow one religion or another, period. There is no gray area. Religious preference is guaranteed protection under the law, regardless of how one set of religious beliefs melds or conflicts some other set of religious beliefs. And I'm absolutely thankful religion has that guarantee.
I know that metaphor won't be popular. Yet it's the truth. Regardless of whether homosexuality is a choice, homosexuals should have an equal treatment under the law. The argument over whether it's a choice is a red herring, meant to distract people from the fact that homosexuals are equally contributing people of a society that guarantees equality.
Besides, society has been evolving toward egalitarianism since the end of the Dark Ages. It's silly to fight against it. During the Civil Rights era, it was unthinkable that women and black people should be given equal rights. Later it was insane to suggest interracial marriage. Even though "Christianity" was used to oppose all of those progressions, no one bats an eye at any of those things now. I'm 27; my generation and the younger generation overwhelmingly support gay marriage - even Christians. In ten years, this thread might be referenced in some high school report on what actual people discussed concerning gay marriage.
It's amazing what a "divide" exists on just a 3-hour jaunt east or west along I-84. It's like going back to the 1960s here in PA.
Yes, by all means you are welcome! We welcome new blood here regardless of race, age, gender, religion or sexual orientation.
Being gay here is incredibly easy- protection under the law protects you from zealot- like fascist goosestepping bigots and moral anti science fanatics; it gives you one less stress factor in life.
Last edited by skytrekker; 10-13-2008 at 10:24 AM..
I do believe it's a behavior that while not easy, can be overcome. I think causation can be found, and it's a problem to be dealt with much like alcoholism or an eating disorder or many other hardcore issues can. (I'm sure even that statement will offend some, and I hope they realize it's not my intent and I'm not saying it to be hurtful. I am simply sharing what I believe to be true.)
IF your account is to be taken seriously, then there's hope for two of my ducks! Whereas "Lesbian" is probably the wrong word for them, they are definitely "a pair."
Come to think of it, I had ducks growing up. Maybe that's where I "learned" this.
I thought you mentioned in another post that you had met more gay individuals than many gay individuals had themselves. Do you share the above view with them?
JViello, I just wanted to say that even though I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum I give you tremendous respect for taking the high road here. You're doing a very brave thing by speaking your conservative values on a left-leaning state's forum, and even though you've been faced with some tough criticism you're still managing to handle yourself rather well. I can't say the same for threads I've participated in on the Politics & Other Controversies forum, where it is an incessant slap-fest between foaming at the mouth radical liberals and inbred right-wing nut jobs.
Perhaps this is just indicative that the people of Connecticut possess a higher caliber of intellect? In any event I'm impressed that this thread has progressed for as long as it has thus far without anyone biting anyone's head off. Bravo to you all! I still have our old Hartford relocation packet in our basement that was sent to us by the Chamber of Commerce in the early-2000s when my father was pondering relocating us there for a job opportunity. I might just be giving it a second glance. Scranton will never be the cosmopolitan hub of the Poconos I have long hoped it would be. Hartford seems to be so much better, and the fact that you are tolerant enough of those of us in the LGBT community to NOT hurl slurs at us from passing vehicles (I kid you not---this happens routinely here in Pennsyltucky) is just gravy heaped on top of an already appetizing plate of mashed potatoes.
I thought you mentioned in another post that you had met more gay individuals than many gay individuals had themselves. Do you share the above view with them?
Yes actually, with those I knew on a more personal level. We had some pretty heated discussions but in the end, I still respected them as living breathing human beings first and never let the differences in our core issues take a front seat.
I have the same relationship with my feminist, hard left mother in-law. We both know we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, but we have learned to love each other for who we are...and Frankly from what I have read about you Rich, we would probably enjoy each others company as friends more than you think.
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Originally Posted by ScranBarre
JViello, I just wanted to say that even though I am on the opposite end of the political spectrum I give you tremendous respect for taking the high road here. You're doing a very brave thing by speaking your conservative values on a left-leaning state's forum, and even though you've been faced with some tough criticism you're still managing to handle yourself rather well. I can't say the same for threads I've participated in on the Politics & Other Controversies forum, where it is an incessant slap-fest between foaming at the mouth radical liberals and inbred right-wing nut jobs.
Perhaps this is just indicative that the people of Connecticut possess a higher caliber of intellect? In any event I'm impressed that this thread has progressed for as long as it has thus far without anyone biting anyone's head off. Bravo to you all! I still have our old Hartford relocation packet in our basement that was sent to us by the Chamber of Commerce in the early-2000s when my father was pondering relocating us there for a job opportunity. I might just be giving it a second glance. Scranton will never be the cosmopolitan hub of the Poconos I have long hoped it would be. Hartford seems to be so much better, and the fact that you are tolerant enough of those of us in the LGBT community to NOT hurl slurs at us from passing vehicles (I kid you not---this happens routinely here in Pennsyltucky) is just gravy heaped on top of an already appetizing plate of mashed potatoes.
Wellllll, thanks for the kind words, but I have been known to get heated at times myself. I suppose it's just human nature to some degree.
But as stated above, I tend to see the person first and the "issues" second. Always have.
I think you will enjoy it here. I really do.
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Cure Homophobia, not homosexuality
In any event I'm impressed that this thread has progressed for as long as it has thus far without anyone biting anyone's head off. Bravo to you all! I still have our old Hartford relocation packet in our basement that was sent to us by the Chamber of Commerce in the early-2000s when my father was pondering relocating us there for a job opportunity. I might just be giving it a second glance. Scranton will never be the cosmopolitan hub of the Poconos I have long hoped it would be. Hartford seems to be so much better, and the fact that you are tolerant enough of those of us in the LGBT community to NOT hurl slurs at us from passing vehicles (I kid you not---this happens routinely here in Pennsyltucky) is just gravy heaped on top of an already appetizing plate of mashed potatoes. 
I suppose it's just human nature to some degree.
