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I'm not qualified to say nor I have I done much research. A statistical risk cost-benefit analysis could helpful, weight how contagious a disease is combined with how dangerous the disease. I haven't gotten a flu vaccine so perhaps it shouldn't mandatory, or maybe that's a good reason it should be (I have a strong belief that disease and accidents happen to other people, though I'm a bit sick right now, just a cold, but hey that's my belief!).
suzy_q2010 beat me to it. I saw this post while we were at a restaurant for dinner, and was thinking the same thing. All these calculations, and then some, have been done.
I have been hesitant to bring up economic concerns, b/c I figured it would just set off the anti-vaxers with accusatory stuff like "you want to inject babies with poisons so the moms can go to work", etc. Since the genie is now out of the bottle, I will say, most vaccine-preventable diseases have an economic impact.
Anything that forces an employee to take two weeks off work for illness, their own or their child's, has an economic impact. Since this thread is about measles, I'll stick with measles. I recently found my first grade report card, when I had the measles. I missed three weeks of school, and my mom was one to send us kids to school come H*** or high water. She was not employed back then, but what about a mom who was? Many moms have jobs with little or no sick time. (I was just talking to a doctor [female] the other day, and she said at her office, which is a pathology office BTW, there's an unstated policy that you never take a day off. She said numerous of her co-workers were coming in sick when the flu was so bad in the metro Denver area, but that's a different subject and a different problem.) So what does one do in that situation? If there's a dad around, maybe he can pick up some of the sick time, and maybe he can't. Maybe he doesn't have much sick time either, and it might be better for one parent to get fired than both! Maybe he's scheduled for a business trip to South Korea like my DH's co-worker. No day cares, even "sick child" day cares, will take kids sick with contagious diseases. Maybe there's a grandma around who's not working herself. The other thought that occurred to me is how did the teacher get any teaching done? I seem to recall that measles was going around my classroom, which meant that on any given day for probably a month or more, numerous kids were absent. Not *too* much of a problem in first grade, but certainly a problem even in upper elementary grades.
suzy_q2010 beat me to it. I saw this post while we were at a restaurant for dinner, and was thinking the same thing. All these calculations, and then some, have been done.
I have been hesitant to bring up economic concerns, b/c I figured it would just set off the anti-vaxers with accusatory stuff like "you want to inject babies with poisons so the moms can go to work", etc. Since the genie is now out of the bottle, I will say, most vaccine-preventable diseases have an economic impact.
Anything that forces an employee to take two weeks off work for illness, their own or their child's, has an economic impact. Since this thread is about measles, I'll stick with measles. I recently found my first grade report card, when I had the measles. I missed three weeks of school, and my mom was one to send us kids to school come H*** or high water. She was not employed back then, but what about a mom who was? Many moms have jobs with little or no sick time. (I was just talking to a doctor [female] the other day, and she said at her office, which is a pathology office BTW, there's an unstated policy that you never take a day off. She said numerous of her co-workers were coming in sick when the flu was so bad in the metro Denver area, but that's a different subject and a different problem.) So what does one do in that situation? If there's a dad around, maybe he can pick up some of the sick time, and maybe he can't. Maybe he doesn't have much sick time either, and it might be better for one parent to get fired than both! Maybe he's scheduled for a business trip to South Korea like my DH's co-worker. No day cares, even "sick child" day cares, will take kids sick with contagious diseases. Maybe there's a grandma around who's not working herself. The other thought that occurred to me is how did the teacher get any teaching done? I seem to recall that measles was going around my classroom, which meant that on any given day for probably a month or more, numerous kids were absent. Not *too* much of a problem in first grade, but certainly a problem even in upper elementary grades.
I won't stick with measles, lol. I think I'll talk about mumps. I don't remember how much time I missed from school for measles or the chicken pox. I mentioned this before, but I missed a week of school because of the mumps. I imagine every other kid in my class did the same. If you imagine all those kids making all that work up and smaller classes because of sick children, you realize that many of the costs of these diseases are hidden. Mothers stayed home. Children missed out on learning. Than there were the medical bills for the kids who went to the doctor. All of these costs are for the lucky kids and families who simply experienced minor inconvenience because of these diseases. Multiply all that out times millions of children and its a pretty significant cost.
I haven't asked the anti-vaccination people here their ages. However, my hunch is that most of them are younger than Suzy, yourself and I. These diseases largely aren't real for them because of the success of the vaccination they now roundly condemn.
Maybe some people can only learn by actually seeing the disease affect a family member
Mainstream media is working hard to induce a panic about the outbreak. Of course there's no evidence given for who is or what is behind this news coverage, but very much like the Ebola hysteria, this too will pass as people stop talking about vaccinations due to boredom. People need to stop watching the news, it's so fricken negative.. always has been, this is not a new development.
As the elections approach you can expect the media to cover at least 3 topics they want you to think are major and which can be addressed by the Federal Government (Vaccinations and the right to not get vaccinated is obviously going to be one of the major topics this time around).
That was determined close to 50 years ago and 150 million kids have not had to worry about disease for a very long time because of it. Until now. All because of some crack pots who think they know better, but can only defend their absolute self centered view with fallacy, distraction, and just pure nonsense.
Yeah, they keep citing deaths after immunization and then you dig into the data and they are includings deaths by any cause including drowning, car accident....anything.
At some point the old quote during the McCarthy hearings "Have you no shame" springs to mind.
Then they start crying about "big pharma" being into it for the money while directing you to some crackpot anti-vax site selling you all kinds of stuff...and they don't see the financial motive there.
Oh well, so many are so far gone on the topic they'll never change their mind even after the Wakefield fraud got uncovered so many doubled down on conspiracy.
Which ones do you think people should be forced to have due to the threat to the public at large? Which vaccines should be optional?
Mandatory: measles, mumps, rubella (MMR), tetanus, diphtheria, acellular pertussis (TDaP), polio, chickenpox.
Strongly encouraged: Hib, Hepatitis B, HPV, seasonal influenza.
Other immunizations can be considered based on the individual patient's age, medical history, and travel plans.
Yeah, they keep citing deaths after immunization and then you dig into the data and they are includings deaths by any cause including drowning, car accident....anything.
At some point the old quote during the McCarthy hearings "Have you no shame" springs to mind.
Then they start crying about "big pharma" being into it for the money while directing you to some crackpot anti-vax site selling you all kinds of stuff...and they don't see the financial motive there.
Oh well, so many are so far gone on the topic they'll never change their mind even after the Wakefield fraud got uncovered so many doubled down on conspiracy.
"Have you no shame" is right! Related to these crackpot websites, they push these untested, unproven "supplements" at mega prices.
Get this: "There were538 reported cases in 2013 of vaccine-preventable diseasesleading to hospitalization of individuals up to 19 years old, resulting in $29.2 million in hospital charges, according to the annual report by Children's Hospital Colorado and the Colorado Children's Immunization Coalition. There were three reported 2013 cases of vaccine-caused adverse events leading to hospitalization of a person 19 years or younger that cost $29,938 in hospital charges."
That doesn't include vaccine-preventable illness where the child wasn't hospitalized. No deaths from vaccines reported.
They're talking about this story on the news right now.
According to the CDPH: "Vaccination status is documented for 34 of the 59 cases. Of these 34, 28 were unvaccinated, one had received one dose and five had received two or more doses of MMR vaccine." The vaccine is not 100% effective, and there are reasons other than being a "crack pot" why people are not vaccinated (ie. medical reasons, age). Overall, the vaccination rate in the USA is 91% so the "crack pots who think they know better" are very few, and aren't necessarily to cause of the outbreak or the reason why it spread so wide. If they really were a problem then these outbreaks should be many and involve tens of thousands of people annually. But in fact aside from 2014, the number of cases has only been c. 40 to 200 per year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty
You mean you don't know? LOL
That was determined close to 50 years ago and 150 million kids have not had to worry about disease for a very long time because of it. Until now. All because of some crack pots who think they know better, but can only defend their absolute self centered view with fallacy, distraction, and just pure nonsense.
According to the CDPH: "Vaccination status is documented for 34 of the 59 cases. Of these 34, 28 were unvaccinated, one had received one dose and five had received two or more doses of MMR vaccine." The vaccine is not 100% effective, and there are reasons other than being a "crack pot" why people are not vaccinated (ie. medical reasons, age). Overall, the vaccination rate in the USA is 91% so the "crack pots who think they know better" are very few, and aren't necessarily to cause of the outbreak or the reason why it spread so wide. If they really were a problem then these outbreaks should be many and involve tens of thousands of people annually. But in fact aside from 2014, the number of cases has only been c. 40 to 200 per year.
It is curious that you home in on the 5 who were fully vaccinated and do not comment on the 28 who were not vaccinated.
The unvaccinated are the fuel that spreads an outbreak.
The reason there are so few cases in the US is the high vaccination rate. The Disney outbreak just happened to be introduced into an area with pockets of low vaccine coverage. That's why we are seeing more cases.
Larger outbreaks happen when someone introduces the virus into a group of people with very low vaccination rates, such as the one involving an Amish community in Ohio last year, where missionaries picked it up in the Philippines and brought it home. There were 383 cases, and it stayed contained because the Amish stay near home mostly.
The Disney outbreak spread to multiple states because the exposed population was transient.
The assumptions you are trying to make about the way infectious diseases spread are incorrect. The overall vax rate is 90+ percent, but there are areas where it is much lower than that, and that is where we tend to see more measles cases.
This right here. And those who are immune compromised, like my grandson with SCID, or children with cancers that have to have their immune system suppressed in order to try to cure them, or adults, for that matter, in the same situation. Anyone who, because of a compromised immune system, either permanent or temporary, could die because of the irresponsibility of some people.
I'm not for forced vaccination, but I might be for not letting those who will not, rather than cannot, vaccinate send their kids to public schools but require them to attend private schools, say, so that the damage they do can be reduced.
Here in Texas you have to show your vaccination record before attending school (been that way as long as I can remember and my eldest is 42). There are exemptions, but they have to be documented by religion or physician, not just "I don't wanna because I just KNOW it's a bad thing because the internet told me so and science is evil".
Haven't read through the thread all the way yet, but in Texas that was changed years ago (I have a 17 year old). We have conscientious objections now, doesn't have to be religious or medical. There is a Dallas lawmaker who is working on reversing that.
It's clearly because of illegal immigrants who illegally crossed our borders. Nobody knows what vaccinations those people have had, if any. It's not like they bring their health records with them when they sneak over here through the desert with only the clothes on their back.
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