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Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,592,007 times
Reputation: 2576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest
What united us as a Country? What continues to keep us divided as a people?
The Civil War United the States into a Country. The bastardization of the Confederate Cause continues to divide us, 150 years later.
If a civil war broke out today and the issue was state sovereignty and independence from the (Union) Federal Government. People would not see State Rights as the cause, they would twist it to the core and say race was the cause of the war.
States can not secede from the Union, because the Confederacy lost the war.
The good, the bad and the ugly; the bad and the ugly, brushed with a broad stroke, removes any good that from an event. If people threw out the bad and the ugly, they might get along together and truly become as One. Our representatives do not want to see that happen, ever, and have found manipulation of the people, too easy, as people make it so.
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,592,007 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by mm4
1. The Civil War had nothing to do with slavery: Tariff of 1828
2. As long as progressive leftist moonbats fling epithets at southerners, their region's adopted banner is still a symbol of honor and dignity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
Well everyone truly knowledgeable about the southern rebellion knows it was about protecting slavery, as the rebels themselves candidly admitted. But it's interesting that modern apologists for the rebellion think that rebellion in the interest of lower tariffs is less loathsome than rebellion in the interests of protecting slavery.
All wars are economic and are always between centralists and decentralists. The North would have found an excuse to invade the South even if slavery had never existed. A war almost occurred during 1828-1832 over the tariff when South Carolina passed nullification laws. The U.S. congress had increased the tariff rate on imported products to 40% ( known as the tariff of abominations in Southern States ). This crisis had nothing to do with slavery. If slavery had never existed --period--or had been eliminated at the time the Declaration of Independence was written in 1776 or anytime prior to 1860 it is my opinion that there would still have been a war sooner or later.
<snipped>
Years after the war former Confederate president Jefferson Davis stated " I Am saddened to Hear Southerners Apologize For Fighting To Preserve Our Inheritance" . Some years later former U.S. president Theodore Roosevelt stated " Those Who Will Not Fight For The Graves Of Their Ancestors Are Beyond Redemption".
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
(set 29 days ago)
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,592,007 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati
Learn some history. The Tariff of 1928 was replaced in 1832 - don't peddle the absurd notion that secession in 1860 was about a tariff that had not been in effect for 28 years. Oh, and the tariff of 1832? That only lasted a year before being replaced.
Now, your empty claims are... ahem, 'interesting'... But why don't we actually ask those who seceded why they seceded?
South Carolina, the first state to secede in a huff, took pains to explain precisely why it was leaving. In so doing, it the word 'slave' and it's variations - slavery, slaveholding, etc. - appear 18 times. It goes on and on here:
Quote:
It continues at length about slavery for paragraph after paragraph. But not once in the entire declaration will you find any discussion of tariffs.
Shall we look at other states? How about Georgia? The word 'slave' its variations here appear no less than 35 times - it's all Georgia talks about when blustering over why its secession is justified. Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Georgia Secession
And we can always ask Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens for his thoughts, for he was kind enough to give them to the ages in his famous Cornerstone Speech.
The Southerners of the Confederacy had no compunctions about stating, loudly and clearly and unequivocally, that they were seceding over the issue of slavery. Oh, how inconvenient that must be to modern revisionists!
So, to sum up:
Q: How do we know that the Confederates seceded from the Union for the overriding reason of preserving the institution of slavery? A: Because they told us so!
The status of the Negro, where as the Union, was freeing them without making it to where they could provide for themselves through property ownership, education, or anything else. They set them free, so as they could incorporate them into the war.
If you will read the documents as a whole, you will get that, I'm sure. But as long as a person is focused intent on one thing and one thing only, then they will totally miss it.
Funny, but not so funny is the fact that we still struggle with these ideals as a country. Illegal immigrants from Mexico are treated much like slaves here now. Which is one of the big reasons some oppose allowing them to stay. They are worked beyond tolerance, paid little or nothing, and threatened with deportation if they make a sound about their treatment. Yet 1/2 the population fight for our right to own these people in the name of what's good for business. It's the same then and now. Slaves were tied to big business, nobody wanted to give up their money, now or then. We haven't changed that much.
The battle was over profit, not people. Slaves were just workers who required very little pay in the form of housing and food. Just like today, slave wages and conditions run rampant because someone makes a profit from it. Then slaves were sold from their country for a profit, bought by some Americans to use to make a profit. It was business, and they didn't want to lose their businesses. So, they fought over it.
There are a ton of unethical business practices alive today I have a problem with as well. Profit driven is more appropriate than racism though. If we are going to be honest that is. The flag represents the fight to keep business going in the south, which were run and worked by slave labor.
Nobody is fighting for the right to keep Mexicans in slavery here in the US. What 79% of the people want is for Congress to pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill that will solve the problem once and for all. The right wing will sell you a bill of goods and say that if you're not for deporting every single illegal alien then you are for illegal immigration. This is simply not true. Here you portray the Mexicans as downtrodden slaves of American industry while if you move over one forum, your compatriots are claiming Mexican immigrants are riding the gravy train of American Largess. Which is it?
http://publicreligion.org/research/2.../#.VZwLOvlViko At present, 62% of Americans favor providing a way for immigrants who are currently living in the United States illegally to become citizens provided they meet certain requirements, while 17% support allowing them to become permanent legal residents but not citizens, and roughly 1-in-5 (19%) favor a policy that would identify and deport all immigrants living in the United States illegally.
Additionally, I have read all 158 pages of this thread and one thing stands out above all. The Seditious Bast***s who started the Civil war have never left. They just went to ground after the Civil War but they remain with us. Whenever an event turns over the rocks they hide under, they come scuttling out proclaiming their just cause for secession as they attempt to rewrite history. It's only been 150 years. The American memory is better than that.
Come back in another two hundred years and then tell us that trying to destroy the Union of the United States was an honorable cause. In the meantime, scuttle back under the rocks you came out from, Go back to the shadows, next to the McCarthy's, John Birchers, KKK and racists where you belong.
Sorry to be so harsh, but that is my honest, true feelings.
Edited to add: One more thing.
You attempt to blame the banning of the confederate flag on liberal PCism. That's a joke. Look how fast the South Carolina Republican legislature turned tail and overwhelmingly denounced the cause, the flag and it's future place in South Carolina.
So either it is the right thing to do, morally, or they turned tail and folded like a cheap suit under the scrutiny of public opinion.
Nobody is fighting for the right to keep Mexicans in slavery here in the US. What 79% of the people want is for Congress to pass a comprehensive immigration reform bill that will solve the problem once and for all. The right wing will sell you a bill of goods and say that if you're not for deporting every single illegal alien then you are for illegal immigration. This is simply not true. Here you portray the Mexicans as downtrodden slaves of American industry while if you move over one forum, your compatriots are claiming Mexican immigrants are riding the gravy train of American Largess. Which is it?
What Americans Want From Immigration Reform in 2014 At present, 62% of Americans favor providing a way for immigrants who are currently living in the United States illegally to become citizens provided they meet certain requirements, while 17% support allowing them to Immigration-Survey-Cover become permanent legal residents but not citizens, and roughly 1-in-5 (19%) favor a policy that would identify and deport all immigrants living in the United States illegally.
Additionally, I have read all 158 pages of this thread and one thing stands out above all. The Seditious Bast***s who started the Civil war have never left. They just went to ground after the Civil War but they remain with us. Whenever an event turns over the rocks they hide under, they come scuttling out proclaiming their just cause for secession as they attempt to rewrite history. It's only been 150 years. The American memory is better than that. Come back in another two hundred years and then tell us that trying to destroy the Union of the United States was an honorable cause. In the meantime, scuttle back under the rocks you came out from, Go back to the shadows, next to the McCarthy's, John Birchers, KKK and racists where you belong.
Sorry to be so harsh, but that is my honest, true feelings.
We didn't surrender to the rule of Great Britain however, so we kept our flag. The south surrendered to the United States, so that is the flag that should fly there.
Tariffs were lowered before the rebellion, then raised during it when the rebelling states no longer had a say. Note too that agricultural northern states didn't rebel, though tariffs weren't in their interests. But northern agricultural states didn't have slavery.
In any event tariffs are a political issue, like any other, and in a representative government you take your losses with your wins and work to get your way in subsequent elections. People don't get to rebel simply because political issues aren't going their way. Didn't you have civics classes in grade school?
Uh, like the revolutionary war?
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But why don't we actually ask those who seceded why they seceded? 
