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Please read the post that I responded to....Prime said to bring Santa INTO the school, to which I said the contrarians would have a problem with that as well
Now to your point, you are right, I don't understand your reasoning....it's not only that YOU don't want to go, you don't want ANYONE ELSE to go.
Well, yes, that's inappropriate. No one should be going to this on school time.
They don't see it because they don't want to see it. It's as simple as that.
Yes but the fact it is a public school changes things because of freedom of religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keep It Simple
Please read the post that I responded to....Prime said to bring Santa INTO the school, to which I said the contrarians would have a problem with that as well
Now to your point, you are right, I don't understand your reasoning....it's not only that YOU don't want to go, you don't want ANYONE ELSE to go.
I had this experience in elementary school some 20 years ago back before the overly PC reaction. Judging by reactions of Jewish parents and teachers, I'm surprised that this lasted as long as it did. Mainly because many associate Santa with Christmas just as much as Jesus. And people wonder why I say happy holidays. I don't know what you celebrate and don't like to assume.
St Nicholas is a religious figure representing Christmas, a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Christ. Neither St Nick not Christmas are present in any other religion outside Christianity. Of course for someone going to church every Sunday this is a hard concept to grasp.
Why then is Sinter klaas, and in some customs his helper, a mythical figure bearing many identities.
If it is Saint Nicholas, a true religious figure, why not retain his identity and legend? And why not celebrate him on Saint Nicholas' day, December 6. An why would so many non christians and protestants celebrate a Catholic Saint.
We have changed his name, changed his appearance. We let Coke company do that. We gave him a wife and elves (or are they children) and a magical ride. Sounds kind of like Odin doesn't it.
This is not at all things that would be supported by the church and in no way resembles Saint Nicholas.
So please help me grasp this concept that has never been taught in any church I have attended.
I'm Jewish, and I'd be p issed as hell if a Santa trip got canceled like that! It would be a sad day if my little girl didn't get to sit on Santa's lap at least once during the holidays, and see beautiful lights and nativity scenes all over town.
Look, this is a Christian country,Christmas is a national holiday, and Santa is for everyone. GET A LIFE LADY.
This is not a Christian country. This is not a Protestant country either (as they liked to think some 60 years ago). This is a country with majority Christian population that made separation of church and state the cornerstone of it's Constitution - for a very good reason.
Have your kids been told by other kids yet they are going to hell because they don't accept Jesus ? Mine were. In a very liberal multicultural school district, of all places. The religious prejudice is strong enough without having the public school district reinforce it by showing preference to a single religion.
The lady that complained had a proper concern - school spending a whole week on a single religious (yes, religious) holiday and honoring a religious (yes, religious) Christian Saint, while largely ignoring the other religions and making these other kids feel like outsiders.
The school overreacted. Instead of canceling the trip this year, they should've still held the trip, and then spend some time on other religions - this year. Then next year, concentrate on teaching kids and leave any and all religious cr@p to the private after-school activity.
The idiot mom who declared this was a "War on Christmas" and staged a walkout had not only grossly overreacted, but she also certainly removed any notion of this not being a religious issue.
And about Christmas being a secular holiday and Santa not being a religious figure... my a$$.
Yep. No religious overtones at all. All inclusive.
I dont see why a public school has to take kids to go see Santa.... let the parents do that on their own time. Does this Santa trip enhance the curriculum? Do the students actually learn anything? Why are they missing a day of class to go sit on Santa's lap?... It's just not appropriate in the sense it has nothing to do with the curriculum or learning. . . let the kids and their families go see Santa on their own. . .
Also, perhaps the school could bring Santa to the school and have him sit in the gym for an hour during an assembly if it's so important... the kids that wanna see him can and the Jewish and non-celebrants can go hang out somewhere else.. that way an entire day of class isn't missed.
So these kids who are "Jewish and non-celebrants" will be put in a situation where they have to be very visibly excluded from the rest of the kids. Especially at that age, this would create acceptance problems down the road. Why should a public school be forcing any kids into making a choice like that in the first place ?
Ask yourself a question - if you were a devout Protestant, how would you feel if a public school your kids went to was holding celebrations with a profoundly Catholic flair ? And that's the same religion, mind you.
A melting pot where everyone melts into a generic Christianity? No, a lot of people (including many Christians) definitely don't want that!
You cannot unify a community by using tools that drive people apart. And there is very little that is more divisive than religion.
American society, as a result of the way it was deliberately constructed, cannot successfully use religious symbols as a unifying force. We can use other things, though. See any bickering over Independence Day, Memorial Day, or Presidents Day?
She doesn't want anyone else to go DURING SCHOOL HOURS, on a trip being paid for BY THE TAXPAYERS. Anyone who wants to see Santa can go after school or on the weekend, and no one will have any issues with it.
It's not an appropriate field trip for a public school to be offering. It's a perfectly fine trip for a private group to organize and fund.
Now do you understand the reasoning?
I agree. Field trips are supposed to have an educational component.
She does not have to take the girl from school. Anytime you do not want your child to participate in a particular extracurricular activity, your child can go to another class room.
OK, let's introduce muslim prayers 5 times a day in a school with a sizable Muslim population (a few around here), the other kids can go to another class room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
Again, seeing santa is not a religious custom, its a secular one. If they were going to see Jesus then it would be religious.
Santa is Saint Nicholas, a Christian Bishop with many churches named after him in every US state. He's the symbol of Christmas, a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ. See the overtly religious posters of Santa I posted in this thread on the previous page. It should be up to every family in their private life whether or not to see Santa. This decision should not be forced upon them by a public school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
I imagine this child already feels excluded and marginalized during the holiday season due to her families beliefs. That is her families choice.
I see, so it's her family's problem that they're not Christian ? The school did not unnecessarily create that exclusion problem by fostering a Christian religious holiday of the Birth of Jesus Christ and the Christian religious figure, St Nicholas, who has many churches erected in his name, on every child in that class ?
I wonder if this child would "already feel excluded and marginalized" if she wasn't put in a situation where the rest of her classmates are doing something she doesn't do and they are all made aware of this ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares
I had very religious cousins (Christian) who were never allowed to celebrate secular christmas, no santa, no christmas tree, no presents. Im sure they felt excluded as well, as might Jehovah witnesses, and the plain peoples.
I grew up in a Jewish-Catholic family. There was so much petty rivalry - not as much between the grandparents who got along just great, but mostly their brothers, cousins etc - that my siblings and I were raised non-denominational as we got pretty much sick of both sides. We stopped going to see Santa after the third "do you love Jesus" question from a fat guy with a fake beard. This was back in the 80s, not a century ago.
We do have a tree. We erect it the day after Christmas. I don't want any religious baggage to come with this. We also light the Menorah but make sure our kids understand the cultural significance of it, not the religious significance.
I really don't believe God has time for all of this cr@p people came up with to keep the sheep divided.
Last edited by Ummagumma; 12-23-2015 at 10:24 AM..
The words of everyone who opposes separation of church and state, ever. Who are you to say that the complaints of non-Christians regarding the celebration of a Christian religious festival in a public stool funded in part by THEIR tax dollars is merely a "really insignificant non-issue"?
Put a statue of Shiva dancing on that courthouse lawn, or sing an Islamic song at a school presentation, and see just how fast the "really insignificant non-issue" becomes a very big issue indeed.
I DO NOT OPPOSE seperation of church and state. As a matter of fact I am a fervent supporter of keeping government and religion apart. But I also realize that I need to pick my battles. A plastic decoration on a courthouse lawn or a third grader singing Holy Night at PS 167 are non-issues.
I welcome the display of all religious beliefs. Know why? Because it doesn't ****ing matter.
A melting pot where everyone melts into a generic Christianity? No, a lot of people (including many Christians) definitely don't want that!
No a melting pot where people aren't offended over stupid **** that is of little consequence in the real world.
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