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Well, I disagree. Sex assault generally involves someone doing something to another person’s body against their will. Forcing people to get vaccinated also involves doing something to someone else’s body that they disagree with. Sexual assault and harrassment victims are not always believed so she very well would lose her job no matter what. Either she’d have to get quit or get fired or assualted.
Sex isn’t illegal and vaccines aren’t illegal but forcing them upon someone against their will is illegal when it comes ot sex, why should it be ok when it comes to vaccines?
Have sex or pay a $1000 fine. Get a vaccine or pay a $1000 fine. Not good.
You missed the point. Sexually harassing or assaulting someone is illegal. Requiring vaccinations for entry into school is not. In fact, they’re mandated by state law. As are the consequences for opting out without an exemption. See the difference? Within the law vs. illegal and prosecutable.
It sort of like a creepy boss telling his female employee that she can say no to his sexual advances but if she does, she’ll be fired. She has a choice though, right?
Seriously? I jumped into this thread late, but I am trying to be intelligent and respectful with my posts.
I get that trying to make a point about choice, but you cannot possibly believe your analogy is a good one. Vaccination recommendations are far the common good.
A creepy boss making sexual advances is quite the opposite of the common good (and I know you know that, I'm just spelling it out).
I would like to ask some additional, very basic questions:
Do you believe vaccination recommendations are for the common good?
Do you believe childhood deaths (from VPDs) will rise if vaccination rates continue to drop?
Do you believe the current vaccination recommendations actually cause more harm than good (in terms of health, not including any attacks on personal freedoms).
Also curious, as your post made me question it, how do people who are against vaccines feel about the potential development of a vaccine for a disease like ebola that wreaked havoc on parts of west Africa only a few years ago, and spread to the US and some other countries? Better hygiene/sanitation and education are needed in often affected areas in Africa, but that process seems to be unfortunately very slow, and 11,000 died of ebola a few years ago, with a total of about 28,000 cases. A vaccine has been in the works and iirc, may have been administered to at least some people at the time, experimentally? Or maybe I'm thinking of the treatment? Either way, would people support administering vaccines, assuming they are deemed safe, for ebola to prevent the spread of such a horrible disease, including to outside countries, and to prevent as many deaths as occurred in the last major outbreak?
Because ebola is a very frightening disease. Yes, outcomes are the best when conditions are sanitary and people understand how to protect themselves, and when proper care is administered asap, but it can get out of control in areas where this stuff is not common or easily available. Do we just let people die and the disease run to infect tens of thousands or do we vaccinate large portions of the population in affected areas, and others at risk like doctors and other workers for Doctors Without Borders? If someone who is against vaccines were somehow forced to go to an ebola infected area in west Africa, like Monrovia, Liberia in 2015, and live normally amongst the people as ebola spread in the city, would you have taken a vaccine against ebola if it were available or would you have risked your life and health, and risked being treated in an ebola treatment center there if you got sick?
I think for many in the US, the idea of losing so many people to a disease a vaccine may be able to prevent, and has been able to prevent, is unfathomable. It has been a very long time, longer than ago people's lifetimes today, since we had major outbreaks of any illness that has killed or infected a scary number of people (think 1918 flu). It's been a long time since it was unfortunately rather common for families to lose at least one child to an illness. We have been protected by vaccines for so long that people no longer know what it's like to not be. Complacency is never a good idea. And then of course there are people who think they know better than experts who devote their careers to studying and creating vaccines. I don't blindly trust everyone telling me to do something, but the science relating to vaccines is not on the anti-vaxxers' side. They spread misinformation, stupidity, and diseases when an outbreak finally occurs because vaccine rates get low enough.
If there is to be "choice" where people think they know better than experts, they should at least take it upon themselves to be extra cautious and keep in mind that their unvaccinated status and that of their children can truly harm others.
1918 Flu Pandemic? While I obviously wasn't born then, I am 70 and my Grandparents certainly were alive then. My Grandma was pregnant with my Dad in 1918. Grandpa was a NYC Trolley Car Conductor. Imagine all the people he came into contact with? My Paternal side had four, and one unborn, young children then. None of them died. Same for my Mom's side of the family in NYC which had six young children.
Neither side of my family ever talked about that Flu Pandemic to me. but they DID talk about the Great Depression. I suppose that made more of an impression on them than the 1918 Flu Pandemic in NYC.
This didn't answer any of my questions. And I don't know what the point of posting that "widespread use" of the diptheria vaccine didn't happen until the 1940s. That was linked to an even greater decline in cases of diptheria. Kind of "duh" isn't it? You're helping the vax side!
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to understand.
And so you don't have to go back and search, here were the questions I asked:
Do you simply disbelieve that could ever happen again? Do you think the decrease of childhood deaths is more related to hygiene than to vaccines? (I certainly do not). Does individual freedom trump the right of children to have the best shot of surviving? Does the past not frighten you? This topic could expand into every aspect of healthcare for children, like how do you deal with parents who only believe in prayer for treating any disease?
It really depends on which disease and which vaccines you’re talking about. I’m sorry but I can’t provide a blanket answer for all vaccines in regards to this because there are different risks involved depending. It’s complicated. I disagree that we are facing any sort of emergency though in regards to this. We still have pretty high vaccination rates with voluntary compliance.
1918 Flu Pandemic? While I obviously wasn't born then, I am 70 and my Grandparents certainly were alive then. My Grandma was pregnant with my Dad in 1918. Grandpa was a NYC Trolley Car Conductor. Imagine all the people he came into contact with? My Paternal side had four, and one unborn, young children then. None of them died. Same for my Mom's side of the family in NYC which had six young children.
Neither side of my family ever talked about that Flu Pandemic to me. but they DID talk about the Great Depression. I suppose that made more of an impression on them than the 1918 Flu Pandemic in NYC.
I wasn’t born then either, but I heard about this my whole life. My dad lost both his parents and an older brother. He and his older sister survived. She was 10. He was 6. Being an orphan in those days was no picnic. He carried the scars (both physical and mental) for the rest of his life.
This pandemic cost 50 to 100 million people their lives. That was 3-5% of the world population at that time. Maybe you should Google and learn about what was one of the greatest natural disasters in all human history.
It really depends on which disease and which vaccines you’re talking about. I’m sorry but I can’t provide a blanket answer for all vaccines in regards to this because there are different risks involved depending. It’s complicated. I disagree that we are facing any sort of emergency though in regards to this. We still have pretty high vaccination rates with voluntary compliance.
Ok, I'm not trying to pin you down for a blanket answer. Since you say it depends on which disease/vaccine, I'll ask it this way:
Are there any vaccines on the current schedule that you do feel should absolutely be required (other than medical exemption) in order to attend public school? Or should every single one be optional for public school attendance?
Are there any vaccines on the current schedule which you believe cause more harm than good, in terms of public health?
And while you say we are not currently facing any sort of emergency right now (I did not say that we are), I am still wondering if you believe childhood deaths could again become common IF vaccination rates, say Tdap, fall? Why or why not?
Ok, I'm not trying to pin you down for a blanket answer. Since you say it depends on which disease/vaccine, I'll ask it this way:
Are there any vaccines on the current schedule that you do feel should absolutely be required (other than medical exemption) in order to attend public school? Or should every single one be optional for public school attendance?
Are there any vaccines on the current schedule which you believe cause more harm than good, in terms of public health?
And while you say we are not currently facing any sort of emergency right now (I did not say that we are), I am still wondering if you believe childhood deaths could again become common IF vaccination rates, say Tdap, fall? Why or why not?
I fully believe in choice so my answer is, no I don’t feel that any vaccine should absolutely be required in order to attend public school. I believe in public health education with honest, balanced info as opposed to mandates. I believe that these are decisions that one makes with his or her doctors or other health professionals.
I’m not going to answer regarding my beliefs about some vaccines being worthless because that is something that people should decide for themselves with their doctors. I have no interested in dissuading or persuading people to get vaccinated.
I can’t answer your last question but as of now, I really don’t see it happening.
Ok, sorry if I used the wrong label of anti-vax. Labels can be good to succinctly sum something up, but bad if it's wrongly applied.
This thread is largely about protecting people from disease in areas where vaccination rates have fallen. Protection includes quarantine (banning from public places), and disallowal of attending public schools if not fully vaccinated per the local requirements.
At any rate, I think you disagree with all of those protections. (I could be wrong). If yes, your shorthand label would be "anti-forced-protection from anti-vaxxers" perhaps?
I first addressed you because I thought you were saying infants/children are better protected by maternal antibodies than by vaccines. I disagree with this, and thought this kind of thinking sounded rather anti-vax to me (hence why I used that shorthand label).
You asked about diptheria. One quick google search showed me that "Diphtheria once was a major cause of illness and death among children. The United States recorded 206,000 cases of diphtheria in 1921, resulting in 15,520 deaths. Starting in the 1920s, diphtheria rates dropped quickly due to the widespread use of vaccines." https://www.cdc.gov/diphtheria/clinicians.html
15,520 deaths due to just one disease in one year! Outbreaks like this can be avoided only if the vast majority of people are vaccinated. So count me in the group that is in favor of vaccinations in order to fully participate in society. If someone chooses to live as a recluse, I don't care if they skip vaccinations. But other than a legitimate medical exemption, I am in favor of schools requiring vaccinations. I support doctors who refuse to accept patients who refuse vaccinations. I support hospitals (or any employer actually) who refuse to employ people who are unvaccinated (I worked in many hospitals, and had to stay current on their vax schedule).
I don't understand how anyone can be so non-chalant about what will happen if the vax rates continue to fall.
Do not apologize for using the terms anti-vax, anti-vaccine, antivaxers, etc. For some reason, people who oppose vaccines hate, hate, HATE to be called anti-vaccine, even though, in essence, they are. That lying liar RFK, Jr. says "I'm fiercely pro-vaccine" then goes on to write screed after screed opposing vaccine after vaccine, for example. That has-been (even in the anti-vax movement) Jenny McCarthy says "I'm for safe vaccines", stirring up FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) about the safety of current vaccines. I think it has to do with the negative connotation of being "anti" anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
Well, I disagree. Sex assault generally involves someone doing something to another person’s body against their will. Forcing people to get vaccinated also involves doing something to someone else’s body that they disagree with. Sexual assault and harrassment victims are not always believed so she very well would lose her job no matter what. Either she’d have to get quit or get fired or assualted.
Sex isn’t illegal and vaccines aren’t illegal but forcing them upon someone against their will is illegal when it comes ot sex, why should it be ok when it comes to vaccines?
Have sex or pay a $1000 fine. Get a vaccine or pay a $1000 fine. Not good.
Don't hijack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
1918 Flu Pandemic? While I obviously wasn't born then, I am 70 and my Grandparents certainly were alive then. My Grandma was pregnant with my Dad in 1918. Grandpa was a NYC Trolley Car Conductor. Imagine all the people he came into contact with? My Paternal side had four, and one unborn, young children then. None of them died. Same for my Mom's side of the family in NYC which had six young children.
Neither side of my family ever talked about that Flu Pandemic to me. but they DID talk about the Great Depression. I suppose that made more of an impression on them than the 1918 Flu Pandemic in NYC.
I just want to say (although UNC4Me answered you well) "Big Whoop"! The 1918 flu pandemic is a verified historic event. That your family escaped unscathed is wonderful. It wasn't that way for everyone.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 04-09-2019 at 02:49 PM..
I fully believe in choice so my answer is, no I don’t feel that any vaccine should absolutely be required in order to attend public school. I believe in public health education with honest, balanced info as opposed to mandates. I believe that these are decisions that one makes with his or her doctors or other health professionals.
I’m not going to answer regarding my beliefs about some vaccines being worthless because that is something that people should decide for themselves with their doctors. I have no interested in dissuading or persuading people to get vaccinated.
I can’t answer your last question but as of now, I really don’t see it happening.
It happened last year in Europe. Not only could it happen, it's happened!
In other words, there is a worldwide conspiracy to cover up adverse reactions to vaccines.
Zero chance of that & you know that I know that. Your just trying to invalidate my message by transference; transferring the looney-tune, “tin-foil-hat” image onto me by use of the word; “conspiracy”.
There is no conspiracy at this level of authority. All news & reports that might implicate a vaccine, valid or not; will be almost by definition: Antivaccine. Antivaccine is considered “fake news”. Including legitimate studies that might otherwise alert us to a safety issue or even a recall.
The media thinks they are doing a public service by not perpetuating Antivaccine rumors. The CDC representatives that networked with the media also believe they are doing the right thing. The experts that instructed those representatives believe this is the right thing. Everyone (almost) who supports this believes they are doing the right thing. Worldwide conspiracies don’t work. Conspiracies among just a few do.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
It appears Dr. Zimmerman's idea of his own importance is a bit overstated.
Not an uncommon personality trait among doctors. Consider the source; Respectful Insolence? Gorski? He’s an Oncologist specializing in breast cancer & a smart enough guy in his own right. But Zimmerman is a Pediatric Neurologist specializing in Autism. So, ...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Mitochondrial disease is not autism.
Dr. Zimmerman did not say that the research is showing that mitochondrial disease is autism.
Dr. Zimmerman said that the research is showing that vaccines can cause autism in children with mitochondrial disorders.
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Nothing ever disappears from the internet. Have you heard of the Wayback Machine? Do you have a title and author for any of those "gone" articles?
I get “error” messages.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Of course not. If it were a virus there would be no one to sue
So there is a worldwide conspiracy amongst parents of autistic children to cash in on their child’s permanent disability?
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Autism is a complex genetic condition.
By definition, complex genetic disorders require a non-genetic, environmental factor:
Quote:
Common medical problems such as heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and obesity do not have a single genetic cause—they are likely associated with the effects of multiple genes (polygenic) in combination with lifestyle and environmental factors. Conditions caused by many contributing factors are called complex or multifactorial disorders.
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