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He moved her forward closer to where the window would have been. He may have encouraged her to start banging, so she stretched out her hands and leaned forward. That's it. Those were the possible forward motions I suggested. It wouldn't necessarily be obvious in the video because it wouldn't be a huge, dramatic motion.
I don't believe he was holding her motionless out in front of him, outside the window, for 30 seconds and then suddenly for no reason let go. I also don't believe he threw her out the window.
I don't think he encouraged her to start banging, because there is simply no way he did not know the window was open. Unless he was mentally disturbed, or drunk, you just cannot mistake an open window for a closed one, on that deck. I think he held her with her feet on that window ledge (because I think he really is an idiot with very poor judgement) and she moved enough (whether she "lurched" or moved suddenly...no matter) to make him lose his grip on her, and she was gone. Guard rails are there for a reason. Unfortunately, there is a fool on most every cruise.
I don't think he encouraged her to start banging, because there is simply no way he did not know the window was open. Unless he was mentally disturbed, or drunk, you just cannot mistake an open window for a closed one, on that deck. I think he held her with her feet on that window ledge (because I think he really is an idiot with very poor judgement) and she moved enough (whether she "lurched" or moved suddenly...no matter) to make him lose his grip on her, and she was gone. Guard rails are there for a reason. Unfortunately, there is a fool on most every cruise.
This is also a possibility in my mind. One thing that makes me wonder though is that apparently among the first words out of his mouth were "I thought there was glass." If a lie, that is quick thinking on the spur of the moment under such traumatic circumstances.
This is also a possibility in my mind. One thing that makes me wonder though is that apparently among the first words out of his mouth were "I thought there was glass." If a lie, that is quick thinking on the spur of the moment under such traumatic circumstances.
I never read that those were his "first words". Even if that were so, it would not give me pause at all.
But all this does not matter. He would do anything to have that day back, and not make the same mistake.
It certainly was a mistake, no matter what or how, it was certainly not intention. Just really poor judgement unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by saibot
This is also a possibility in my mind. One thing that makes me wonder though is that apparently among the first words out of his mouth were "I thought there was glass." If a lie, that is quick thinking on the spur of the moment under such traumatic circumstances.
I'm surprised we haven't heard a peep from other passengers, who clearly heard what was going on. At one point, it's clear Grandpa has shouted out something, as many passengers turn and start approaching.
Be interesting to read a clear timeline of what he said.
I'm surprised we haven't heard a peep from other passengers, who clearly heard what was going on. At one point, it's clear Grandpa has shouted out something, as many passengers turn and start approaching.
Be interesting to read a clear timeline of what he said.
I have searched twitter and other places to see if anyone posted anything as it was happening. If they did, I haven't found it or it has been deleted. I'm sure people were instructed by law enforcement or attorneys or someone not to make any public statements, because you're right - no one has said anything!
I heard, too, though, that he dropped to the floor and said "I thought there was glass! I thought there was glass!"
I don't understand people who want to demonize the grandfather as if what he did is a personal affront to them. Yes, he made a mistake. He did something stupid. That poor baby died as a result. I feel sorry for her, I feel sorry for him, I feel sorry for her parents and the rest of the family. I think they should drop the lawsuit against Royal Caribbean because they did nothing wrong.
Another thing I have seen in researching old articles is that the window they were at is not really in the play area. It is 40 feet from the play area and next to a bar. So the family's assertion that it was in a children's area isn't really valid.
I cannot believe this is still being debated after everything we have already seen from crystal clear video. Move on to another subject people.
HE IS GUILTY. END OF STORY. ENJOY JAIL GRANDPA. PARENTS GET NO MONEY FOR STUPIDITY
The "debate" has nothing to do with the legal resolution of the case. It's about the how/why of it. Things like this go on for YEARS sometimes. Websites are created to facilitate such discussions. It's human nature to discuss it. Just don't open the thread if you are over it and don't want to read anymore about it.
The "debate" has nothing to do with the legal resolution of the case. It's about the how/why of it. Things like this go on for YEARS sometimes. Websites are created to facilitate such discussions. It's human nature to discuss it. Just don't open the thread if you are over it and don't want to read anymore about it.
Yes, even though none of us has any special knowledge or connection to the case, and even though it was a tragedy, it's interesting to ponder what was going on, especially psychologically. It just occurred to me that the words "I thought there was glass" (if accurately reported) support the grandfather's repeated assertion not just that he thought the window was closed, but that he thought the windows didn't open at all.
The grandpa has said that in his experience, high-up areas such as he was in on the cruise ship were always completely glassed in, not open to the air. And if he had been aware that the window could be opened and closed, surely it would have been more natural to say "I thought it was closed!" Think about it...isn't that what you would say? "I thought the window was closed," not "I thought the window had glass in it"?
Of course the issue is whether or not a sane adult (who was left in charge of a toddler) could reasonably be unaware that a big window a few inches from his face was open. I used to think he couldn't have missed it, but I'm starting to change my way of thinking on this. "I thought there was glass" really implies having had no clue that the windows could be opened at all. When I watched the video and saw him leaning over the railing before picking Chloe up, I assumed he was looking out the open window. But maybe he was actually looking down at Chloe at his feet during that time (we can see her running ahead of him to the window). Maybe he was so fixated on her that he paid no attention at all to the view right in front of him. In any case, his words make it seem to me that he genuinely had no clue about the open window.
I used to think he couldn't have missed it, but I'm starting to change my way of thinking on this. "I thought there was glass" really implies having had no clue that the windows could be opened at all. When I watched the video and saw him leaning over the railing before picking Chloe up, I assumed he was looking out the open window. But maybe he was actually looking down at Chloe at his feet during that time (we can see her running ahead of him to the window). Maybe he was so fixated on her that he paid no attention at all to the view right in front of him. In any case, his words make it seem to me that he genuinely had no clue about the open window.
Possibly. I personally find it odd that his reported first words were a justification or defense of his actions. I hope to god I never find myself in a similar situation, but I think were I involved in a tragedy of that magnitude my first words would be expressions of horror or disbelief. Mea Culpa
Of course the issue is whether or not a sane adult (who was left in charge of a toddler) could reasonably be unaware that a big window a few inches from his face was open. I used to think he couldn't have missed it, but I'm starting to change my way of thinking on this. "I thought there was glass" really implies having had no clue that the windows could be opened at all. When I watched the video and saw him leaning over the railing before picking Chloe up, I assumed he was looking out the open window. But maybe he was actually looking down at Chloe at his feet during that time (we can see her running ahead of him to the window). Maybe he was so fixated on her that he paid no attention at all to the view right in front of him. In any case, his words make it seem to me that he genuinely had no clue about the open window.
A point I saw made on another discussion board is that the middle windows where he was looking out actually tilt outward so the window/no window would beyond the railing further from him than just a window at a straight 90 degree angle. Not sure what role that would play, but I can see it making a difference in some way, like he thought the window was OUT THERE, not expecting it to be right next to his face.
Another thing is, I have seen pictures of those windows where I was just looking at one section and if they were all closed or open, I had a hard time telling if they were closed or open. I mean if I didn't know the windows were tinted I wouldn't know.
Like if I saw the picture at the link below (post #7), and didn't see that one open window in the first pic, or the one closed window in the second pic, I would assume that all those windows were solid windows, not windows that could be opened and closed.
And this one https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/b...ality/page/28/ (the post with three pictures, the first one Chloe at the ice rink) I would assume these were all solid windows, which I guess they are, but I can see why you might not be aware that a window is open. I'm not saying is the cruise line's fault, just that I can see how you could assume a window was shut.
How many times do people walk into a sliding glass door thinking it's open?
Last edited by luzianne; 03-09-2020 at 12:51 PM..
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