Dallas: Southeast or Southwest? (El Paso, Fort Worth: home, metro, areas)

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by justme02

I dont know that its either.

Demographically, its more in line with the Southwest.

Really? Name a Southwestern city with a black population that makes up more than 20% of the city proper.

[HtownLove]

Originally Posted by justme02

I dont know that its either.

Demographically, its more in line with the Southwest. Culturally its more in line with the Southeast and the Great Plains. Recently, throw Mexican culture in there as well. Topographically, Dallas does not feel southern at all. Very plainsy/midwestern.

Dallas (and DFW for that matter) is at the crossroads of several cultures, its not just under one.

hence the central south part.

it is not SE, it is not SW.

It is at the center and hence has influences of both

Texas is in the South Central part of the south; along with Louisiana, Arkansas and Oklahoma.

AZ, NM, CO, NV are in the southwest.

The US is made up of 4 regions like so:
http://www.stats.indiana.edu/maptool...gions_main.gif
NE, Midwest, South and west.

The regions are further divided into subdivisions, like this:
http://drpcloud.com/wp-content/uploa.../692usamap.png

the subdivisions are
New England- Boston
Mid Atlantic- NY, Philly, Pittsburgh, Buffalo
South Atlantic or South East- DC, Baltimore, Atlanta, Miami
East South Central- Birmingham, Jackson, Memphis, Louisville
West South Central- Houston, Dallas, NOLA, OKC, Little Rock
Mountain West- Denver, Butte, Cheyenne
Pacific West or West Coast- LA, SF, Seattle, Anchorage, Wasilla, Honolulu

Originally Posted by Nairobi

Really? Name a Southwestern city with a black population that makes up more than 20% of the city proper.

Albuquerque?? lol, nope

I think some people in Texas just love claiming to be South Western cause a little man on the TV said so.

[eddie gein]

This is interesting to me being a native of the OKC area. Dallas seems more southern to me than OKC. However it also seems more "western" than OKC in some ways. "Western" in terms of cattle, oil and agriculture as opposed to southwestern like New Mexico and Arizona.

It's almost like there are two "southwesterns". The Oklahoma, Texas and eastern New Mexico "southwestern" and the Big Bend, Western New Mexico , Arizona southwestern.

However, it was pointed out that Dallas has a lot of "great plains" feel to it and in that way it seems VERY similar to OKC/ Wichita.

However "southern" Dallas is, it doesn't seem as "southern" as Houston or east Texas by any stretch. To me Dallas is a mix of all of it but I certainly don't think it is more "southern" than "great plains" or OklaTex "southwestern". However it is not at all "southwestern" in the New Mexico, Arizona sense of the word.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

And that logic right there is why these discussions are never resolved, and they always end up with two sides: those who know what they're talking about, and those who won't accept that maybe they're wrong, simply because of what they've previously thought all of their lives.

"Dallas just doesn't feel like the south, because there's no pine trees".

"The South" is an umbrella term that can be broken down into several different parts: Deep South, Southeast, South Central, Upper South, etc.

Very well said, Nairobi. There is also the "western South", the "Mountain South", the "Lower South", the "Tidewater South" and so on and so on.

Anyway, yes, the South is -- and always has been -- more a state of mind and one of self-identification with it, than a purely geographical location. And one of these components is a solidly shared history and culture that clearly distinguishes "the South" from the Midwest, Northeast, or Far West.

And as you seem to allude to, one of my biggest pet-peeves are those "Deep South Purists" (and I am kin to some of them) who presume the right to define the South with no of the fact they were born in a state which most fits the "moonlight and magnolias" imagery.

Sorry, but that dog don't hunt. Being from a Deep South state in and of itself no more makes the person an "expert" on Southern history and/or culture, than my being from Texas alone makes me a superior authority on the Texas Revolution!

[Zembonez]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

No, it isn't. And yes they did.

The German/Czech influence is just about to the same degree that French Cajun was in south Louisiana. The Mexican influence, originally, largely stemmed from that Texas was once a Mexican possession, and thus, many place names contain the same. But even prior to the Texas Revolution, and definitely after it, it was anglos and blacks from the southeastern states which came in and shaped Texas as an essentially Southern state. And as it is, the Europeans, mostly assimilated into the larger Southern culture over time.

After the Texas Revolution, many Mexicans left the state. And the population shift today is -- unlike in the truly SW states (NM and AZ) -- is of fairly recent origin.

Also, can you cite some sources which back up this ludicrous contension that most early Texans did not migrate from the east? As it is, in 1850, only 16% of the population of Texas was of either European and Mexican origin. Only 3% were from the northeast. The overwhelming majority were from the southeastern states, at around 75% (Tennessee, Alabama, and Mississippi, furnished the most new settlers). And this figure does not count the percentage of blacks (which in 1860, was roughly a third of the population).

Very nicely stated.

I'll take your word on the immigration from the Southeast and stand corrected if that was a major route for immigrants. Many of these immigrants must have been simply passing through the Southeast, headed for Texas. I know a large number of people also came here from the New York area because it was a major port of entry for them. I found out most of this information while working on a family tree project for a large number of German speaking citizens in New Braunfels. A large part of my family came from Germany and France in the late 1800s.

I still see very little Southeastern influence in Texas. I've traveled quite a bit in the Southeast and it's a completely different world.

[Cowboys fan in Houston]

Originally Posted by Nairobi

Really? Name a Southwestern city with a black population that makes up more than 20% of the city proper.

Name a major Southern City (outside Texas or Miami) that is over 40% Hispanic.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Zembonez

Very nicely stated.

I'll take your word on the immigration from the Southeast and stand corrected if that was a major route for immigrants. Many of these immigrants must have been simply passing through the Southeast, headed for Texas. I know a large number of people also came here from the New York area because it was a major port of entry for them. I found out most of this information while working on a family tree project for a large number of German speaking citizens in New Braunfels. A large part of my family came from Germany and France in the late 1800s.

I still see very little Southeastern influence in Texas. I've traveled quite a bit in the Southeast and it's a completely different world.

Thank you for a very intelligent and courteous reply, even if we disagree on some things!

There were really three major "ports" of entry for the very early immigrants, one being -- as you mentioned -- the New York area. Another being sorta Upper South/Middle Atlantic, and the third being in South Carolina. Most of those who came from the first eventually spead into the Upper Midwest. The second came across the Upper South and into West Texas. And the third across the Lower South and into East Texas where the Deep South begins on a west to east trek.

The true West (Rocky Mountain, interior SW, Pacific coast) was a mix of all.

You are correct in that the "western South" (which begins somewhere around Ft. Worth and extends -- at extreme definition -- a little across the New Mexico border. The "eastern South" -- IMHO -- is marked -- in terms of a major city being the demarcation line -- as being very obvious in Tyler, Texas.

Again though, these "eastern" and "western" Souths are close cousins. They differ quite a bit from each other -- as you say -- but they are stll very much "kinfolk" in a metaphorical sense. That is to say, while they are not identical twins to one another, they still are of a very much closer blood relationship that any of them are with the Northeast, Midwest, and Far West.

[HtownLove]

Originally Posted by justme02

Name a major Southern City (outside Texas or Miami) that is over 40% Hispanic.

The hispanic thing is just a result of the last two decades. It is not like Black History that has been ingrained in the culture for such a long time and was once 30-70% of the population at one time. and YEs even San Antonio had such high black populations.

I asked in another thread if ATL becomes 40% Latin would you guys call it SW too??

just because houston got 1.5M Mexicans the last 25 years it is all of a sudden SW now??

BS

these regions were based on field of work not based on no darned mexicans.

The South was agrarian (hence all the black people used for labor)
The NE was industry
The west and midwest were frontier states and had no clear direction (gold, cattle, farming etc)

Dallas, Houston, San Antonio were big on agriculture, like the rest of the stuff, and thus Nairobi's and Blkgiraffe's people built the darn place. They shared a larger part of those places history than no Johnny come Lately. Or maybe I should have said Jose. There were black people at the Alamo too.

[Cowboys fan in Houston]

Originally Posted by HtownLove

The hispanic thing is just a result of the last two decades. It is not like Black History that has been ingrained in the culture for such a long time and was once 30-70% of the population at one time. and YEs even San Antonio had such high black populations.

I asked in another thread if ATL becomes 40% Latin would you guys call it SW too??

just because houston got 1.5M Mexicans the last 25 years it is all of a sudden SW now??

BS

Im not calling Dallas southwestern, Im saying it has elements of Southeastern and Southwestern (as well as Midwestern and Mexican) in it.

[Nairobi]

Originally Posted by justme02

Name a major Southern City (outside Texas or Miami) that is over 40% Hispanic.

I never said Dallas' demographics were more akin to the Southeast. You did say that its dem. were more akin to the Southwest, which isn't really true. You can't make note of the large Hispanic population but just discount the large black population.

If there's any Texas cities with the dem. that are truly typical of a Southwestern city, it's El Paso and San Antonio.