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There is plenty of infill in Dallas - Se Uptown, See old East Dallas, see now west Dallas! Houston, my hometown, is twice the land area as Dallas proper so yea there is MORE area to redevelop/infill given its boundaries. The most noticeable infill area in Houston is the Heights and is the area around Greenspoint. You factor in as infill Bellaire and West U as those have long been upper middle class enclaves and like the Park Cities in Dallas have their own municipalities. I also feel you are mistaken in that people in metro Houston have not sought greener pastures outside the city - Pearland, the Woodlands, Spring, Tomball, Katy/ Cinco Ranch, and Atascosita all have experienced material growth.
PLUS Houston since the 1980s has annexed Clear Lake, Kingwood and unincorporated areas towards Sugarland. Why? Well because of the upper middle class TAX base those areas represent that grew due in part to fleeing Houstonians! In the 1990s, Kingwood fought tooth and nail to NOT be absorbed by Houston; they lost but in doing so, their fight led to major changes in annexation laws.
There's been plenty of infill in Dallas. I used to work in Victory Park when I lived in DFW and the infill there was amazing to see on a day-to-day. I'd say the most infill growth in Houston is actually within the western half of the loop (say west of 45/288). You could also include some western areas just outside the loop (between Briar Forest and Richmond out to the Beltway). Houston luckily has had a mass annexation since 95, and since then has only annexed commercial strips. Luckily the state law changed and has made it harder for larger city to annex.
As it relates to Dallas, this just meant that more areas of Houston get redeveloped (Garden Oaks / Oak Forest, Spring Branch, etc.) rather than those areas being outside the city. I think the decentralized nature of DFW used to be of great benefit when it was a smaller metro, but it's made traffic very bad for the north side now (and all freeways heading north). What made DFW popular was that it was cheaper and had greatly planned suburbs.
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Originally Posted by Dallaz
Maybe that has a lot to do with Houston’s expansive city limits. There are not any large suburbs to compete with Houston in its metro. The same cannot be said for Dallas.
That's what created the "city first" mindset in Houston. Now there is currently a move for unincorporated areas that want to become cities in Houston, but I don't think that'll change the mindset too much.
There's been plenty of infill in Dallas. I used to work in Victory Park when I lived in DFW and the infill there was amazing to see on a day-to-day. I'd say the most infill growth in Houston is actually within the western half of the loop (say west of 45/288). You could also include some western areas just outside the loop (between Briar Forest and Richmond out to the Beltway). Houston luckily has had a mass annexation since 95, and since then has only annexed commercial strips. Luckily the state law changed and has made it harder for larger city to annex.
As it relates to Dallas, this just meant that more areas of Houston get redeveloped (Garden Oaks / Oak Forest, Spring Branch, etc.) rather than those areas being outside the city. I think the decentralized nature of DFW used to be of great benefit when it was a smaller metro, but it's made traffic very bad for the north side now (and all freeways heading north). What made DFW popular was that it was cheaper and had greatly planned suburbs.
That's what created the "city first" mindset in Houston. Now there is currently a move for unincorporated areas that want to become cities in Houston, but I don't think that'll change the mindset too much.
About the big suburbs, Houston-has lots of them culturally similar to Dallas but politically Houston only has like 5, Pasadena, The Woodlands, League City, Pearland and Sugar Land.
Agreed- albeit many of the bigger Communities in Houston don’t really show up on the radar.
Sugar Land for example had been well over 100,000 when you include the unincorporated area around it and only passed the mark recently when it was allowed to annex its own neighborhoods. Spring is well north of 100,000, Cypress is around the 300,000-500,000 mark depending on were they draw the lines. Klein- might hit 100,000, The Woodlands- 100,000 plus already and is surrounded by areas that are unincorporated that technically aren’t the Woodlands but fall into their sphere of influence, Richmond- depending on boundaries is already over 100,000. Mo-City- on the cusp of 100,000 depending on how you set the boundary again. Conroe is on to 100,000 in its area not sure if all of those people in North Houston identify as Conroe though or their own thing, especially the part of North Houston across the highway from The Woodlands. Katy- is at 300,000 depending on where you say north and NE Katy ends.
Add he number up and you get 9-12-ish which isn’t too far from DFW’s number.
I think point #2 shows how disposable these suburbs are. Plano isn't enough of a "Location" to keep companies from jumping to the next Taxpayer subsidized shiny new development every so many years.
I would agree to some extent but then how do you explain the success of the $3billion development called Legacy West in Plano? Or the Hall development just across the street from Legacy West?
Frisco I/m/o does tax breaks way too much and they haven't always hit a homerun - https://www.constructiondive.com/new...e-list/546397/. I don't see Prosper or Celina as any threat. I see some companies looking westward to Fort Worth's Alliance or along the Chisolm Trail Parkway in southwest FW because Celina, Prosper and Anna are bordering on being too far from the core areas. And frankly, those areas are pretty bland scenery.
That's actually a really good point. The hot suburbs in Houston 10-20+ years ago (Katy, The Woodlands, Cypress, Sugar Land, League City) are still hot today. New suburbs have risen (Pearland, East Montgomery) but it's stayed mostly the same. Meanwhile in DFW, the hot suburbs 20 years ago are now mostly considered outdated and not nearly as desirable like the newer ones. Only exceptions to this rule has been Irving, Plano, and Richardson.
I mean the whole appeal of the Metroplex is the new, pristine suburbia. That's what's attracting the companies and domestic migrants to DFW. It's not Dallas, which happens to just be the major city nearby for a lot of the new residents to DFW.
What are these former hot suburbs? I was young back then, but, based on what I heard, many other suburbs like Carrollton, Farmers Branch, Lewisville, Euless, Garland, Mesquite, and Denton were never considered nearly as desirable as Plano or Frisco are now. Maybe Irving?
The initial 96 square miles of Houston radiating from its downtown (which is the inner loop) is denser and more populated than the same 96 square miles radiating from Dallas' downtown. There is more going on inside 610 than inside Loop 12. I think that's what the poster means. Houston certainly has more people living in its core than Dallas. After living in both areas, I can agree that there is more of a "new suburb" mindset in DFW than Houston. Not that it doesn't exist in Houston too, but there's more of a focus on the city.
So for example, a lot of the new mixed-use developments you're seeing in a few of the northern suburbs of DFW would instead be happening somewhere in the core (inside the 610 loop) for Houston. The only suburbs in Houston with development like that is The Woodlands and parts of the Energy Corridor. The core city hoardes that kind of development, whereas in DFW it's spread around the suburbs.
Houston's downtown has scene much commercial development than Downtown Dallas but again, the metro areas are setup differently. There is no Fort Worth equivalent in greater Houston. There is no Arlington size municipality either. Frisco is basically the Woodlands. So that results in a different approach to each metro areas growth.
So educated, quiet, employed, law-abiding residents of south-Asian origin are a problem why? The Indian population in D/FW is one of the highest in north America but nothing like what I saw in Silicon Valley. From personal experience, while visiting that region to see a newly-relocated friend, at a large apartment property, I'm guessing 95% of its residents were from south Asian. Why, well because American companies, many our neighbors and not Asian sought them out. I find it disturbing those not from India fear them as neighbors.
I personally don't have any issue with Indians at all. and to be honest, I don't think the people I'm talking about are basing this fear/dislike on any legitimate reason...Indians tend to be quiet, hard working, stay away from crime, focused on education...the ideal neighbors. I suspect that the clash is simply the fact that they are from a foreign culture alien to the typical American experience. If it makes any difference, these objections to Indians have come from all races, mainly white, but also Chinese, black and Latino as well.
Shops of Willow Bend were designed poorly as unlike Stonebriar it has no entertainment component - no Dave & Busters, No multiplex movie Cinema, to help drive foot traffic. It was also built too close to Stonebriar which with its opening, choked off traffic that may have come further south to Willowbend but saw no need with the new Frisco mall. Third, it lacks the cache that Legacy West and Legacy East created with their mixed used, street scape look. Being mixed-use creates a captive audience from the office workers and residents for services in Legacy. The Willow Bend hasn't that advantage.
And what you said about Frisco/Prosper residents coming to Legacy, well that's a GOOD thing! You are spending money in Plano not Frisco/Prosper contributing to Plano's taxes! That's the benefit of Plano having Office development. Those people work there. Its like commuters into D.C. and NYC from surrounding areas. They spend money in YOUR town not theirs. That said, Frisco is a threat to Plano more than any of its other northern neighbors for two reasons:
1. Because its got several entertainment venues - the soccer stadium, the baseball stadium, the small arena and the Cowboys Star complex, which Plano has nothing comparable. Then Frisco also announced the PGA is relocating there from Florida.
2. Its zoned areas for large office development. It think Dr. Pepper/Snapple has announced plans to jump from Plano to Frisco by 2021.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying here.
Yes, it's a good thing that currently, people from Frisco and Prosper are driving into Legacy west to spend their dollars in Plano. The issue I was trying to point out is that when Frisco develops its own entertainment that is similar to Legacy West, then that revenue will dry up, indeed there could be a possibility of people from Plano spending their money over in Frisco, the way that they do with Stonebriar. Thus there is the danger of the double whammy for Plano.
Let's see the DNT started construction in 1966! DNT is now 35 miles from Dallas and currently waits for future extension in Prosper, TX. at Hwy 380 & DNT! No way this will change, the game changer came when Toyota moved its North American HQ to Plano, TX.
Jim Lentz CEO of Toyota Motor Sales stated he chose to move from Torrance, CA. to Texas so his lower level employees good purchase homes! Plano's current housing stock is by far superior to CA. and has been built more recently! There is nothing wrong with the suburb's business model.
Dallas has to STOP kidding itself that it is a WORLD CLASS CITY! It has become a city divided by the wealthy refusing to share their prosperity with lower income families and their citizens of color!
The wealthy aren't "dividing" anything here, and they have no moral obligation to share their wealth with people who have children they can't support and who expect others to subsidize their fecundity. Moreover, almost all "world-class" cities have economic inequality that dwarfs that of Dallas.
There is plenty of money in Collin County to go around and Legacy is now the heart of the county. Obviously there is limited space in Plano and land is expensive so everyone can’t cramp in there. As far as malls go, they are transforming all over the globe with new shopping trends. Collin Creek Mall is being replaced by a multipurpose village. Willow Bend has evolved into a family friendly destination with Equinox, Crayola World, Children’s theater, Painting studio, offices and restaurants and more.
West Plano was built better and has better location and more money so yes east side looks weaker in comparison but overall Plano has done much better in last 5 years then ever before. I mean just walk around Legacy West, investors aren’t crazy to pour wealth in such a small development. It’s a Platinum corridor. There is a reason older homes sell for more in West Plano than newer homes in exurbs. It retains and improving it’s value.
I think point #2 shows how disposable these suburbs are. Plano isn't enough of a "Location" to keep companies from jumping to the next Taxpayer subsidized shiny new development every so many years.
Really so you think jobs are not coming to Plano? Take a look around at Legacy West and Granite Park. There will always be jobs moving further out to Frisco now then Proper etc but not because Plano is in decline. Long lasting stability and prosperity starts and ends with good jobs and good schools. I know in the 9 years I have been here traffic heading into Plano for jobs out of homes in Dallas has increased significantly. Do not underestimate the positive impacts for Dallas from Plano jobs. Some focus on Parkland as the big example of Dallas is contributing to northern suburban cities then fail to mention the jobs that these suburbs land fueling Dallas city growth in population for those who want what Dallas offers. we are in it together folks less bashing each other would make more sense to me
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