Rain before foundation pour and lumber out in open (Austin: how much, first time home buyer)
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I am a first time home buyer, and our builder has completed the rough plumbing on our new home lot and was prepping for foundation pour. And then this rain happened, which you all know is on and off for the last 3 days.
They also got the lumber delivered a week ago and its been sitting on the lot in open (I think) during all the rain.
My question now is how will the rain impact
1. Foundation
2. Lumber
Please let me know as I do not have much background on the construction process.
I am a first time home buyer, and our builder has completed the rough plumbing on our new home lot and was prepping for foundation pour. And then this rain happened, which you all know is on and off for the last 3 days.
They also got the lumber delivered a week ago and its been sitting on the lot in open (I think) during all the rain.
My question now is how will the rain impact
1. Foundation
2. Lumber
Please let me know as I do not have much background on the construction process.
Re the foundation if the pad was properly created and drainage from the perimeter and grade beam trenches was also provided then typically they will allow the water to drain out before the pour. Drainage is usually trenches cut at the perimeter and from the bottom of the perimeter trench to the exterior. Very small puddles in the bottom are typically not an issue since the concrete will displace that water.
The issue that would be of concern with these rains is cave ins from the sides of trenches. Depending on the amount of water on the site, if drainage trenches were not created, and if they did not properly compact soils before trenching, then the trench sides can break free and cave into the trenches. Also you top surfaces and trench bottoms should be uniformly created. If this was not done then water can pool which might cause issues.
Re the lumber it might absorb water, be laying in mud, etc., and cause issues later if not allowed to dry and if not cleaned off mostly before use. Wood swells with additional moisture content, it is more difficult to cut and work with, and when it dries it also contracts/shrinks. If they frame with wood over acceptable moisture content it can cause shrinkage and pulling away at joints between pieces when it starts to dry, nails backing out, etc.
Re the foundation if the pad was properly created and drainage from the perimeter and grade beam trenches was also provided then typically they will allow the water to drain out before the pour. Drainage is usually trenches cut at the perimeter and from the bottom of the perimeter trench to the exterior. Very small puddles in the bottom are typically not an issue since the concrete will displace that water.
Thanks for the reply. I have seen they did the trenching, but it is mostly in interior and not on the perimeter itself. It is a like a grid pattern for the whole interior of the lot, and on the exterior perimter of the lot they have added lumbar/wood along the edge of future slab. Not sure if that helps.
I will recheck if trenches are cut at perimeter for drainage.
The issue that would be of concern with these rains is cave ins from the sides of trenches. Depending on the amount of water on the site, if drainage trenches were not created, and if they did not properly compact soils before trenching, then the trench sides can break free and cave into the trenches. Also you top surfaces and trench bottoms should be uniformly created. If this was not done then water can pool which might cause issues.
I will go look at the lot today for any cave ins
Re the lumber it might absorb water, be laying in mud, etc., and cause issues later if not allowed to dry and if not cleaned off mostly before use. Wood swells with additional moisture content, it is more difficult to cut and work with, and when it dries it also contracts/shrinks. If they frame with wood over acceptable moisture content it can cause shrinkage and pulling away at joints between pieces when it starts to dry, nails backing out, etc.
How much time is needed for proper dry off, with a sunny weather. I will also note any signs of too much moisture on the lumber today.
Re the foundation if the pad was properly created and drainage from the perimeter and grade beam trenches was also provided then typically they will allow the water to drain out before the pour. Drainage is usually trenches cut at the perimeter and from the bottom of the perimeter trench to the exterior. Very small puddles in the bottom are typically not an issue since the concrete will displace that water.
Thanks for the reply. I have seen they did the trenching, but it is mostly in interior and not on the perimeter itself. It is a like a grid pattern for the whole interior of the lot, and on the exterior perimter of the lot they have added lumbar/wood along the edge of future slab. Not sure if that helps.
I will recheck if trenches are cut at perimeter for drainage.
The issue that would be of concern with these rains is cave ins from the sides of trenches. Depending on the amount of water on the site, if drainage trenches were not created, and if they did not properly compact soils before trenching, then the trench sides can break free and cave into the trenches. Also you top surfaces and trench bottoms should be uniformly created. If this was not done then water can pool which might cause issues.
I will go look at the lot today for any cave ins
Re the lumber it might absorb water, be laying in mud, etc., and cause issues later if not allowed to dry and if not cleaned off mostly before use. Wood swells with additional moisture content, it is more difficult to cut and work with, and when it dries it also contracts/shrinks. If they frame with wood over acceptable moisture content it can cause shrinkage and pulling away at joints between pieces when it starts to dry, nails backing out, etc.
How much time is needed for proper dry off, with a sunny weather. I will also note any signs of too much moisture on the lumber today.
For the perimeter the for boards are placed at the edge of the perimeter footer/beam trenches running all along the perimeter. You will have interior beam trenches that intersect the perimeter trench. They might not have finished that yet. If not then I expect the Post Tension Cables and black poly plastic moisture barrier are not yet in place as well.
The trenches will extend out from the perimeter trenches to drain the water. There may be one or more drainage points.
For the trenches the drying time can vary with temps, humidity, how much standing water is present, if the soils are already saturated, etc. Hard to say and typically the Builder will watch it to determine when pour can be scheduled.
As for the lumber drying time you certainly don't want lumber to be "bone dry" (extremely or completely dry). Just as with wet wood when excessively dry wood is used during framing and then encounters moisture it will expand causing other issues. This is a good publication about moisture in wood framed buildings https://cwc.ca/wp-content/uploads/20...eBuildings.pdf . Moisture will pass through walls from inside to outside and the lumber in its path can absorb it.
The air drying time for lumber can vary significantly depending on how it is separated and stacked, temps, humidity levels, wind, and other factors. A stack of wet wood can take a great deal of time to dry down to 18% or less moisture content. To give you an idea of this issue this is an article from an Austin Builder about ensuring framing lumber is dried down to 12% - 14% for gypsum board (drywall) installation. And this is with the framing already in place, plenty of ventilation around it, and using equipment to help it dry. https://www.finehomebuilding.com/pro...framing-lumber
Another concern about unprotected wood being rained on is the large amount of engineered lumber (EL) in use. EL is really nothing more than leftover millings that are mixed with bonding and adhesive agents to make what is considered extremely strong lumber pieces. For example I-Joists use a spar at the top and bottom typically of full wood with a center rib that is made with fibers and pieces. Then you have very large and heavy beams made of strips of wood and chemical bonding/adhesive agents. These are not designed to be left for any long term exposure to rain and the elements. Doing so can cause them to start delaminating and distorting.
Wood delivered on site should be lifted up above the surrounding ground and if rain is expected it should be covered to protect it. Having said that it rarely happens anymore. As a result we do see many damaged and deformed wood pieces used in framing.
Another issue to watch out for with all the lumber on site
Thanks for a detailed technical reply. All of this information was overwhelming and between this and working with builder to finalize my selections, I got delayed to reply on your suggestions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by escanlan
For the perimeter the for boards are placed at the edge of the perimeter footer/beam trenches running all along the perimeter. You will have interior beam trenches that intersect the perimeter trench. They might not have finished that yet. If not then I expect the Post Tension Cables and black poly plastic moisture barrier are not yet in place as well.
Both interior beam trenches and perimeter trench were filled with rain water earlier. Are these post tension cables blue ? because they were already laid before this happened as well as the black plastic cover, which covered the lot. However, this was the status 3-4 days ago and I visited my lot yesterday, and the trenches were very dry. Is that a good enough sign to proceed ?
The trenches will extend out from the perimeter trenches to drain the water. There may be one or more drainage points.
I believe this external extension of perimeter trenches and drainage points is not done, which is why i think the water got lodged. I have a team meeting with builder today and I will ask them about this.
For the trenches the drying time can vary with temps, humidity, how much standing water is present, if the soils are already saturated, etc. Hard to say and typically the Builder will watch it to determine when pour can be scheduled.
Luckily, I think the lodged water is only couple of inches high, so it dried real fast. Should i still be worried? Also thinking of scheduling a 3rd party pre-pour inspection. Is this item covered as part of their checkup ?
As for the lumber drying time you certainly don't want lumber to be "bone dry" (extremely or completely dry). Just as with wet wood when excessively dry wood is used during framing and then encounters moisture it will expand causing other issues. This is a good publication about moisture in wood framed buildings https://cwc.ca/wp-content/uploads/20...eBuildings.pdf . Moisture will pass through walls from inside to outside and the lumber in its path can absorb it.
I checked upon my lumber too yesterday, and it looks like it is not 100% dry, which you said is ideal. The center portion looked dry enough, only at the either ends of the 10-15 foot lumber, it seemed a little wet.
The air drying time for lumber can vary significantly depending on how it is separated and stacked, temps, humidity levels, wind, and other factors. A stack of wet wood can take a great deal of time to dry down to 18% or less moisture content. To give you an idea of this issue this is an article from an Austin Builder about ensuring framing lumber is dried down to 12% - 14% for gypsum board (drywall) installation. And this is with the framing already in place, plenty of ventilation around it, and using equipment to help it dry. https://www.finehomebuilding.com/pro...framing-lumber
This is my biggest issue now. The builder had these sheets on the lot (brand: dry-line, not sure if they are drywall, but they go on exterior of the home), which are completely wet and I was able to bend them with one hand after the rain, like a stack of wet papers. Now, they seemed dry, but still they retained their wet shape. I am sure this is a concern, please give me your insights on this. And also, if I go with 3rd party pre-pour inspection, do they check the humidity level
Another concern about unprotected wood being rained on is the large amount of engineered lumber (EL) in use. EL is really nothing more than leftover millings that are mixed with bonding and adhesive agents to make what is considered extremely strong lumber pieces. For example I-Joists use a spar at the top and bottom typically of full wood with a center rib that is made with fibers and pieces. Then you have very large and heavy beams made of strips of wood and chemical bonding/adhesive agents. These are not designed to be left for any long term exposure to rain and the elements. Doing so can cause them to start delaminating and distorting.
I will enquire if they are using EL in our build today.
Wood delivered on site should be lifted up above the surrounding ground and if rain is expected it should be covered to protect it. Having said that it rarely happens anymore. As a result we do see many damaged and deformed wood pieces used in framing.
Another issue to watch out for with all the lumber on site
I am puzzled on why this was not done, as the rain was forecasted atleast 1-2 days out.
Thanks for a detailed technical reply. All of this information was overwhelming and between this and working with builder to finalize my selections, I got delayed to reply on your suggestions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by escanlan For the perimeter the for boards are placed at the edge of the perimeter footer/beam trenches running all along the perimeter. You will have interior beam trenches that intersect the perimeter trench. They might not have finished that yet. If not then I expect the Post Tension Cables and black poly plastic moisture barrier are not yet in place as well.
Both interior beam trenches and perimeter trench were filled with rain water earlier. Are these post tension cables blue ? because they were already laid before this happened as well as the black plastic cover, which covered the lot. However, this was the status 3-4 days ago and I visited my lot yesterday, and the trenches were very dry. Is that a good enough sign to proceed ?
The trenches will extend out from the perimeter trenches to drain the water. There may be one or more drainage points.
I believe this external extension of perimeter trenches and drainage points is not done, which is why i think the water got lodged. I have a team meeting with builder today and I will ask them about this.
For the trenches the drying time can vary with temps, humidity, how much standing water is present, if the soils are already saturated, etc. Hard to say and typically the Builder will watch it to determine when pour can be scheduled.
Luckily, I think the lodged water is only couple of inches high, so it dried real fast. Should i still be worried? Also thinking of scheduling a 3rd party pre-pour inspection. Is this item covered as part of their checkup ?
As for the lumber drying time you certainly don't want lumber to be "bone dry" (extremely or completely dry). Just as with wet wood when excessively dry wood is used during framing and then encounters moisture it will expand causing other issues. This is a good publication about moisture in wood framed buildings https://cwc.ca/wp-content/uploads/20...eBuildings.pdf . Moisture will pass through walls from inside to outside and the lumber in its path can absorb it.
I checked upon my lumber too yesterday, and it looks like it is not 100% dry, which you said is ideal. The center portion looked dry enough, only at the either ends of the 10-15 foot lumber, it seemed a little wet.
The air drying time for lumber can vary significantly depending on how it is separated and stacked, temps, humidity levels, wind, and other factors. A stack of wet wood can take a great deal of time to dry down to 18% or less moisture content. To give you an idea of this issue this is an article from an Austin Builder about ensuring framing lumber is dried down to 12% - 14% for gypsum board (drywall) installation. And this is with the framing already in place, plenty of ventilation around it, and using equipment to help it dry. https://www.finehomebuilding.com/pro...framing-lumber
This is my biggest issue now. The builder had these sheets on the lot (brand: dry-line, not sure if they are drywall, but they go on exterior of the home), which are completely wet and I was able to bend them with one hand after the rain, like a stack of wet papers. Now, they seemed dry, but still they retained their wet shape. I am sure this is a concern, please give me your insights on this. And also, if I go with 3rd party pre-pour inspection, do they check the humidity level
Another concern about unprotected wood being rained on is the large amount of engineered lumber (EL) in use. EL is really nothing more than leftover millings that are mixed with bonding and adhesive agents to make what is considered extremely strong lumber pieces. For example I-Joists use a spar at the top and bottom typically of full wood with a center rib that is made with fibers and pieces. Then you have very large and heavy beams made of strips of wood and chemical bonding/adhesive agents. These are not designed to be left for any long term exposure to rain and the elements. Doing so can cause them to start delaminating and distorting.
I will enquire if they are using EL in our build today.
Wood delivered on site should be lifted up above the surrounding ground and if rain is expected it should be covered to protect it. Having said that it rarely happens anymore. As a result we do see many damaged and deformed wood pieces used in framing.
Another issue to watch out for with all the lumber on site
I am puzzled on why this was not done, as the rain was forecasted atleast 1-2 days out.
Starting from top to bottom on your questions.
Most likely they were Post Tension Cables. These would be run across the foundation pad left to right and front to back. As long as there is no standing water or significant mud puddles, the trench walls have not caved in any, and no other damages have been caused then it should be acceptable to pour.
If they did not cut drainage trenches then they may well have hand scooped the majority of water out to allow the small amount remaining to dry out fast. Or they may already have backfilled the drainage trenches to prepare for pouring.
I always recommend a buyers obtain their own third party inspection. No matter how the Builder responds to the Inspector's report items you have it documented by a Third Party if what the Builder does not correct causes or is suspected to cause issues later. Problems may even surface during construction as a result of any uncorrected issues. The pre-pour can help explain some of those issues. Yes water in trenches, the conditions of trench bottoms and side walls and a whole lot of other items are checked for during a proper pre-pour inspection.
For lumber drying it is preferable to be at/below 18% moisture content before framing starts. In the article I linked to the drywall installation person likes the 12% - 14% moisture content mark to help prevent issues to drywall application from shrinking and wet lumber. Most lumber will stabilize around 8% - 14% over time.
Unfortunately this manufacturer has chosen not to print or provide their storage requirements for their sheathing products. Supposedly once installed they are rated for a very short period being exposed to rain as their purpose is to shed rain. However before installation they should be covered to prevent damage to them and extensive exposure to rain after installation can still affect their efficacy. Depending on what I see on site at the inspection I would most likely recommend to the client that they have the Builder produce the manufacturer storage requirements displaying they stored it properly AND have the Builder's Engineer review the material to ensure its structural ability and weather resistive barrier ability has not been compromised. For the Engineer review I would also recommend the client obtain the Engineers signed inspection report to that affect.
During a pre-pour inspection there is typically no reason to perform any humidity testing as it has little to nothing to do with the foundation pour. However having said that a good Inspector would review any other materials on site and make at least mention in the report their condition as they see it. Better for the client to note it then than after the potentially damaged materials are used.
Sorry for the spurious line at the end as it was in the middle of an edit and should have been deleted. In any case to answer your "why this was not done" question I expect it was indicating why the Builder did not lift the materials up and cover them to protect it from rain. In 17 years of inspecting that was a very RARE thing to do except one builder who ALWAYS did it. At least they always did until they were bought out and then they went to doodie in a hand basket! They don't do it because it takes proper delivery planning, additional time, and additional expense which all equals more money. Building today is about "less money" for building and "more money" for profit!
Unfortunately this manufacturer has chosen not to print or provide their storage requirements for their sheathing products. Supposedly once installed they are rated for a very short period being exposed to rain as their purpose is to shed rain. However before installation they should be covered to prevent damage to them and extensive exposure to rain after installation can still affect their efficacy. Depending on what I see on site at the inspection I would most likely recommend to the client that they have the Builder produce the manufacturer storage requirements displaying they stored it properly AND have the Builder's Engineer review the material to ensure its structural ability and weather resistive barrier ability has not been compromised. For the Engineer review I would also recommend the client obtain the Engineers signed inspection report to that affect.
Slight correction there. Their purpose is to shed moisture that makes it back behind the brick or stone. Of course that can be rain through leakage.
Hi escanlan, Sorry, looks like I missed to reply once again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by escanlan
Starting from top to bottom on your questions.
Most likely they were Post Tension Cables. These would be run across the foundation pad left to right and front to back. As long as there is no standing water or significant mud puddles, the trench walls have not caved in any, and no other damages have been caused then it should be acceptable to pour.
Thanks for confirming, yes they are the same. There is no standing water, but since this a rainy week, they have delayed the slab pour until next week. The concrete shortages also helped with the delay.
If they did not cut drainage trenches then they may well have hand scooped the majority of water out to allow the small amount remaining to dry out fast. Or they may already have backfilled the drainage trenches to prepare for pouring.
Yes, I saw signs of drainage trench backfilling since the second time it rained. It has rained like 4 times now
I always recommend a buyers obtain their own third party inspection. No matter how the Builder responds to the Inspector's report items you have it documented by a Third Party if what the Builder does not correct causes or is suspected to cause issues later. Problems may even surface during construction as a result of any uncorrected issues. The pre-pour can help explain some of those issues. Yes water in trenches, the conditions of trench bottoms and side walls and a whole lot of other items are checked for during a proper pre-pour inspection.
You made some very good points. I took your advice, and I am now buying a 3rd party inspection package for 3 phases (pre pour, pre dry wall and final inspection). Earlier, I only planned to go for the latter 2 of the 3.
For lumber drying it is preferable to be at/below 18% moisture content before framing starts. In the article I linked to the drywall installation person likes the 12% - 14% moisture content mark to help prevent issues to drywall application from shrinking and wet lumber. Most lumber will stabilize around 8% - 14% over time.
The first two products have some degree of water resistance (I was just going by their website, Please correct if i am wrong), can't seem to figure out what the 3rd one actually is.
And regarding the lumber, I have seen 1 or 2 of the poles actually sticked out like sore thumb probably with all the back to back wet and dry cycles. I hope the 3rd party inspector will notice if there is anything wrong with them.
Unfortunately this manufacturer has chosen not to print or provide their storage requirements for their sheathing products. Supposedly once installed they are rated for a very short period being exposed to rain as their purpose is to shed rain. However before installation they should be covered to prevent damage to them and extensive exposure to rain after installation can still affect their efficacy. Depending on what I see on site at the inspection I would most likely recommend to the client that they have the Builder produce the manufacturer storage requirements displaying they stored it properly AND have the Builder's Engineer review the material to ensure its structural ability and weather resistive barrier ability has not been compromised. For the Engineer review I would also recommend the client obtain the Engineers signed inspection report to that affect.
Sorry again, for misleading on the sheathing brand. But based on the updated sheathing brand above, I think they are somewhat water or moisture resistant, please comment on that. Since I am opting for the pre-pour and raw materials inspection, hoping that will help as well
During a pre-pour inspection there is typically no reason to perform any humidity testing as it has little to nothing to do with the foundation pour. However having said that a good Inspector would review any other materials on site and make at least mention in the report their condition as they see it. Better for the client to note it then than after the potentially damaged materials are used.
Yes, looks like there is no incentive for the inspector to do any test, as a default. However, I requested the 3rd party inspection agency to specifically check up on the lumber and sheathing that is sitting on the lot and they obliged.
Sorry for the spurious line at the end as it was in the middle of an edit and should have been deleted. In any case to answer your "why this was not done" question I expect it was indicating why the Builder did not lift the materials up and cover them to protect it from rain. In 17 years of inspecting that was a very RARE thing to do except one builder who ALWAYS did it. At least they always did until they were bought out and then they went to doodie in a hand basket! They don't do it because it takes proper delivery planning, additional time, and additional expense which all equals more money. Building today is about "less money" for building and "more money" for profit!
No worries. Thanks for letting me on the insider tidbits, especially with the current market conditions where builders have a tremendous edge and the general market sentiment that having a contract itself is being considered as a huge privilege, there is no wonder builders can get away with what they can.
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