AWD Doesn't Matter - Your Tires Do (Denver, Dillon: home, pharmacy)

[Arktikos]

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

That's study isn't even close to accurate. Yes you should definitely slow down, but tires make a significant difference.

Here is a good, good real world test:t

Why is it not accurate, and what was not "real world" about it?

Tests by Popular Mechanics and Edmunds came up with about the same numbers, I believe.

[rushhournewb]

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

Studded tires are worse in every single condition except ice. Not at all practical in denver where there is not ice on the ground most of the time. They are terrible on dry pavement and very noisy. The new rubber compounds on non studded winter tires are so much better. I gave up on studs in 2001 and haven't looked back.

I guess that's why I've been driving on studded snow tires all these years. For the terrible performance.

Your comments sound like a stock recitation of urban myths. I speak from years of real world experience.
You speak from dim memories from 16 years ago.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by rushhournewb

I guess that's why I've been driving on studded snow tires all these years. For the terrible performance.

Your comments sound like a stock recitation of urban myths. I speak from years of real world experience.
You speak from dim memories from 16 years ago.

No, I speak from physics. Metal studs make performance far worse on dry pavement and downright scary in wet roads. They are also very loud. I convinced my mother in law to switch two years ago after driving her studded car on a snowy day right after driving mine. She could not believe the difference. The tread patterns and new rubber compounds make studless the better choice unless you're doing the bulk of your driving on ice.

Both are far better than all seasons in snow, but all seasons are going to be much better than your studs on dry cold days, whereas studless are going to outperform all seasons on dry cold days.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by Blind Cleric

Why is it not accurate, and what was not "real world" about it?

Tests by Popular Mechanics and Edmunds came up with about the same numbers, I believe.

You transposed the numbers from Popular Mechanics study. They said only 5% better on braking, which every other test you can view videos of online will prove wrong. Their test is very questionable.

[rushhournewb]

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

No, I speak from physics. Metal studs make performance far worse on dry pavement and downright scary in wet roads. They are also very loud. I convinced my mother in law to switch two years ago after driving her studded car on a snowy day right after driving mine. She could not believe the difference. The tread patterns and new rubber compounds make studless the better choice unless you're doing the bulk of your driving on ice.

Both are far better than all seasons in snow, but all seasons are going to be much better than your studs on dry cold days, whereas studless are going to outperform all seasons on dry cold days.

Physics shmysics. "Far worse" is just not true. "Downright scary" is just not true. "Loud"? So what? You must drive and live in a driving world different than mine. I've never felt any "scariness" driving my studded snow tires, regardless of the conditions. I have, though, felt thoroughly confident driving the entire winter with my studded snow tires.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by rushhournewb

Physics shmysics. "Far worse" is just not true. "Downright scary" is just not true. "Loud"? So what? You must drive and live in a driving world different than mine. I've never felt any "scariness" driving my studded snow tires, regardless of the conditions. I have, though, felt thoroughly confident driving the entire winter with my studded snow tires.

Really? Physics shmysics?

Watch this video tire rack put together. They run the exact same tire, both studded and unstudded.

Studded only did better on the ice and not by much. The non studded version was better on everything else. I see no reason to stud tires in Denver. They're loud, handle worse, and destroy the roads.

Winter Testing at the Arctic Circle: Studdable Winter / Snow

The one thing this video does not do is compare the studded tire to the best non studded winter tires like Bridgestone and Michelin. I suspect the ice performance difference would have been even smaller.

Bottom line to me is that studs are barely worth it in any condition and certainly not worth it in denver where it is rarely icy.

[rushhournewb]

OK, I did look at your tire testing link. This is what I saw:

1) Overall, the studded tires won, 9.28 vs 8.39 second place

2) Your "terrible on dry pavement" and "downright scary" on wet roads? Their comment was "Studs help slick ice traction, but can give up a little braking traction on dry and wet roads."

3) The General Altimax Arctic, described as a "winter" tire, is described on Tireracks own website as "All Weather". I drive full on snow tires with deep grooves and, bonus!, studs. Since they're dedicated winter snow tires, I put on my passenger tires in the summer. Best of both worlds.

[SkyDog77]

Originally Posted by rushhournewb

OK, I did look at your tire testing link. This is what I saw:

1) Overall, the studded tires won, 9.28 vs 8.39 second place

2) Your "terrible on dry pavement" and "downright scary" on wet roads? Their comment was "Studs help slick ice traction, but can give up a little braking traction on dry and wet roads."

3) The General Altimax Arctic, described as a "winter" tire, is described on Tireracks own website as "All Weather". I drive full on snow tires with deep grooves and, bonus!, studs. Since they're dedicated winter snow tires, I put on my passenger tires in the summer. Best of both worlds.

3). It's a winter tire, but that isn't what's important. Seeing first hand the difference studs make on the same tire is what matters for the purposes of this discussion.

2). Maybe a little hyperbolic, but the fact is studs make handling worse on dry and wet surfaces and add nothing on snowy roads which are much more common than icy roads in Denver.

1). I think you left some key findings out:
Larger number is better in all categories. Baseline is 100 on non studded.
Snow Acceleration
Non-studded: 100.0
Studded: 100.1

Ice Acceleration
Non-studded: 100.0
Studded: 122.9

Wet Road Braking
Non-Studded: 100.0
Studded: 95.3

Dry Road Braking
Non-studded: 100.0
Studded: 94.8

Other key finding was significantly more road noise from studs. If you are good with all these trades off simply for better ice traction, then studs make sense.

If driving on ice is your primary concern, nothing is better than studs. If you live in Denver, I see no reason to want them. We deal with packed snow and wet or dry roads more than anything else.

Which brand tires are you running? It would be interesting to see if there are any comparisons of non studded versions of your tire versus Blizzak. Knowing that you get about a 20% ice acceration boost from studs versus the non studded version, I'd like to see how the non studded version of your tire compares to Blizzak. I'm willing to bet you are getting even less benefit than you think.

[N610DL]

Originally Posted by SkyDog77

No, I speak from physics. Metal studs make performance far worse on dry pavement and downright scary in wet roads. They are also very loud. I convinced my mother in law to switch two years ago after driving her studded car on a snowy day right after driving mine. She could not believe the difference. The tread patterns and new rubber compounds make studless the better choice unless you're doing the bulk of your driving on ice.

Both are far better than all seasons in snow, but all seasons are going to be much better than your studs on dry cold days, whereas studless are going to outperform all seasons on dry cold days.

Ah here we go with the local "I'm an expert" posts in Denver. Like the pharmacist at Safeway who just said "Hey man, just take Ibuprofen and Advil together and it's the same thing as taking Advil Cold and Sinus." I listened to him, and I was sick as a dog until I purchased Advil Cold and Sinus and then felt a lot better.

Around here the whole "take it from me" thing is usually a bunch of chatty B.S. I think the AWD vs. what tires you use has a lot of factors involved - including what kind of car you drive and the type of anti-skid control it offers.

[Thoreau424]

As an owner of three vehicles (two that are 2WD) in Northern Colorado, I'd agree that AWD isn't necessary "most of the time". Yes, it's mostly the tires that are significant. However, there are usually a few days each year where the AWD really does make a difference. Ideally, it's good to have both; the 2WD vehicle that is lighter and more fuel-efficient for most driving throughout of the year, and an AWD for less driving and when it might help.

I'm not going to waste time with statistics and studies to prove my point. Simple day-to-day experiences and driving are all I need to know what works.