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I think Stapleton/Lowry are popular because they are well-built, have many amenities, and are within Denver city limits.
Sustainability and mixed-use development are more than just buzzwords, especially in these days of $4 a gallon gas.
I wonder if Stapleton/Lowry would be as popular if they weren't in the city limits, like say in Aurora for example (even though Lowry borders it). That's something to ponder.
Just a side note, my opposition to Stapleton/Lowry is by no means a condoning of places like Highlands Ranch. Y'all can ask EscapeCalifornia about that.
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Originally Posted by denverian
While we don't have jobs in Stapleton, our jobs are within 10 min. of Stapleton, plus we both work from home a couple days per week, so we aren't driving much. But if you worked in the DTC, the drive is horrible. The nice thing is being close to everything in Denver, so we rarely stray more than 10 mi. from home.
That's great! I'm all for living as close to work as possible. It simply makes more sense than living far from work.
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Originally Posted by denverian
As for being "fake", I think that's either jealousy or who knows what. Are '70s tri level beige houses "real", but traditional architecture is "fake"? Were the houses on Cap. Hill fake when they were built in the 1800s?
No, not jealousy, more of my misunderstanding as to why someone would choose to live that way; but I understand the reasoning. But, to each their own, right?
You almost hit the type of house I live in spot on. 60's tri-level, brick with blue siding and shutters. I don't find traditional architecture to be fake, I actually love it. I find tract homes to be "fake", however. And, if forced with the choice of tract home, or Stapleton home, I'd choose Stapleton home. I just feel as though the tract home style development and new urbanism style development contain many of the same evils that turn me off, which in a nutshell is extreme planning.
I wasn't alive in the 1800's, but I love the Cap Hill houses today. I might have considered those houses "fake" if I were alive then, just as much as I'd consider my house "fake" if I were alive in the 1960s.
Consider it a character flaw.
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Originally Posted by denverian
We love Stapleton, mostly for the social aspects. People are friendly, we know all our neighbors and actually interract with them. The schools are great and there are tons of young kids, a perfect place to raise a family.
That's awesome. It's just a little too bottled for me, but I'm glad it works for you.
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Originally Posted by denverian
Compared to everywhere else I've lived, it is Utopia!
That's great too. I'm glad you've found your slice of heaven.
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Originally Posted by WilliamPacker
Trying to create a utopia is a bad thing? Denver could have just decided to throw up a ton of cheap housing with very few parks and other amenities in the surrounding area. The only thing I don't like about Stapleton is the street grid system. As far as new construction goes, this is probably about as good as it's going to get.
I'm afraid you have a point. I would have HATED to see regular tract homes thrown up in the city. I don't have the solution to what a better way of doing things would be, new urbanism might be our best shot, unfortunately.
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Originally Posted by apa1128
what about lowry? For those of you so opposed to these neighborhoods, where do you suggest I look??
I like established neighborhoods, and you can get into a great one in your price range, but unfortunately none are closer to DIA than Stapleton. So, I don't know. If Stapleton and/or Lowry suit your wants/needs, go for it. I like Stapleton better than Lowry, however. Lowry is more suburban style, in parts.
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Originally Posted by Bradburn1
I live in Bradburn Village, a similar community to Stapleton in Westminster (north and west of downtown about 30 minutes). I've heard the "fake" complaint many, many times in regards to specifically new urbanist neighborhoods like mine and can see what people mean by that. A new neighborhood in neotraditional style doesn't have much patina to it because it's new, and considering the main example people have seen of new pedestrian oriented development in America is Disneyworld's "Main Street" I can understand the comparison. Does it bother me? Not. One. Bit. I like living in a place where the developer actually considered aesthetics instead of building the cheapest crap possible (although cheap crap does have benefits--more affordable lol).
I've also heard the "utopia" concern, usually in reference to the social engineering aspects (things that are included to try to foster social connection between residents) of new urbanism--porches on homes, walkability, garages in back, pocket parks, mixed-use. I think some people see that and think "stepford wives" LOL. Like people who live in Stapleton, I too know all my neighbors, feel safe here, enjoy our tons of neighborhood events, and like the fact my HOA prevents people from putting 16 dead cars up on blocks in front of their house. This place is utopia for me, but if dead cars on blocks is more "real" for someone else, I don't begrudge them living anywhere they like.
The only difference between the new "sustainable" (walkable) developments like Stapleton and the older pre World War II areas of Denver which are similar, but presumably "more real"--Wash Park, etc..is age--well that and the fact the new neighborhoods have brand new, built green homes that won't (hopefully) require extensive renovation in the near future. Although, it could be argued the architecture overall is better in the older neighborhoods, I would agree with that.
I agree with all of that Bradburn1, thank you. I couldn't have said it better, and I'm glad it came from somebody that lives in a similar neighborhood.
Last edited by Count David; 08-11-2008 at 04:08 PM..
my family may be relocating from Atlanta to Denver. We are interested in green building and sustainable neighborhoods. We would also like to be close to the city. My husband would be working near DIA. Lowry and Stapleton look desirable. How are these areas? Are they safe for young children and a good place to raise a family? We are in the $500K+ range for a home and it looks like you can get something really nice there. All comments appreciated!
Stapleton and Lowry are both nice neighborhoods - they are safe and without a doubt, a great place for young children and to raise a family. I definitely agree that $500k will get you something nice in either one - I think Lowry may be more expensive though. I personally prefer Lowry because it is smaller and seems more central. I think Stapleton may be a better choice for you since your husband will be working near DIA. I can confirm the drive to the airport from most of Denver sucks (I had to do it Saturday). Stapleton is one of the nicer neighborhoods that is closer to the airport, yet it still remains close and convenient to downtown. I think you'll find a good balance there. There are a few things that I'm not keen on in Stapleton, but overall, I think it would be a great place to live.
I believe the home prices are holding up well there. So although some people may not buy into the allure of Stapleton, a lot of other people are - it's truly a massive development. I've heard of many families moving there from more established Denver areas because they want the bigger affordable house, more kids around, better schools, a safe area, and convenient access to downtown.
I live in Bradburn Village, a similar community to Stapleton in Westminster (north and west of downtown about 30 minutes). I've heard the "fake" complaint many, many times in regards to specifically new urbanist neighborhoods like mine and can see what people mean by that. A new neighborhood in neotraditional style doesn't have much patina to it because it's new, and considering the main example people have seen of new pedestrian oriented development in America is Disneyworld's "Main Street" I can understand the comparison. Does it bother me? Not. One. Bit. I like living in a place where the developer actually considered aesthetics instead of building the cheapest crap possible (although cheap crap does have benefits--more affordable lol).
I've also heard the "utopia" concern, usually in reference to the social engineering aspects (things that are included to try to foster social connection between residents) of new urbanism--porches on homes, walkability, garages in back, pocket parks, mixed-use. I think some people see that and think "stepford wives" LOL. Like people who live in Stapleton, I too know all my neighbors, feel safe here, enjoy our tons of neighborhood events, and like the fact my HOA prevents people from putting 16 dead cars up on blocks in front of their house. This place is utopia for me, but if dead cars on blocks is more "real" for someone else, I don't begrudge them living anywhere they like.
The only difference between the new "sustainable" (walkable) developments like Stapleton and the older pre World War II areas of Denver which are similar, but presumably "more real"--Wash Park, etc..is age--well that and the fact the new neighborhoods have brand new, built green homes that won't (hopefully) require extensive renovation in the near future. Although, it could be argued the architecture overall is better in the older neighborhoods, I would agree with that.
Bradburn1, after doing a little more research about Bradburn, I feel I have to come see it. It's very similar to our current neighborhood, except we have no park space or shops. I also like that you can build a custom home. I have two questions for you:
What is the drive time to the airport?
If you buy some dirt in Bradburn, how long do you have to build?
First of all, let me say that I am all for "live and let live", and also "different strokes for different folks". Now that I'm done with the cliches, I have to say I agree with David that Stapleton, Lowry, and I would add Belmar, seem a little "fake" to me, too.
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Originally Posted by sumgai187
I've heard of many families moving there from more established Denver areas because they want the bigger affordable house, more kids around, better schools, a safe area, and convenient access to downtown.
All of the bold can be said about the suburbs, as well, and many disparage the burbs for these features. I frankly liked living in a neighborhood where there were kids my own kids' ages and all that goes with that: the activities for the kids, the good schools, the camraderie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradburn1
The only difference between the new "sustainable" (walkable) developments like Stapleton and the older pre World War II areas of Denver which are similar, but presumably "more real"--Wash Park, etc..is age--well that and the fact the new neighborhoods have brand new, built green homes that won't (hopefully) require extensive renovation in the near future. Although, it could be argued the architecture overall is better in the older neighborhoods, I would agree with that.
I think another difference is that the older 'hoods didn't try to be all things to all people, e.g. didn't feel the need to provide everyone's socialization, shopping, church and other needs. There was an expectation you might go out of the 'hood for some of these things. I'm not criticizing Bradburn, mind you, I've never been there. When my daughter looked at Stapleton she said she felt it would be like living in a "bubble", similar to living on campus at her small college. But as I said, everyone has different desires.
The airport had to move; it was outdated and could not extend the runways anymore without the problems of noise and pollution. I used it many times in business and personal travel and it was a mess.
It was necessary to put a new airport way out and even inconvenient, because of the buffered open space The metro area will grow closer to it, in terms of mass transit access. However, it will never have homes across the street as the old airport. Remember Stapelton was also build way out of the city, but it did not have buffer land to prevent encrouchment because that issue was not considered when the airport was built.
Stapelton is a great development that has done good things for the area. Even, though some would considered it fake and artificial. Perhaps some would not enjoy living in this environment. I like it as a additonal choice for the people and has generate so much positive feelings and goodwill for Denver.
However, we need to look at it another way. The area around the old airport was decayed and very unsafe. It was simply put, mostly a poor ghetto. When, the airport left, it was felt that the hotels and business that depending on the airport would quickly decline with the neighborhoods.
Now the area west of Quebec, back and adjacent to the hotels, and bordering on Park Hill, is seeing a resurgence in redevelopment. The Stapelton development has given the area nice basic shopping stores, groceries and basic general merchandize which is easily accessible from areas along Quebec. This would not have happened without the redevelopment. In addition, it now has a Mall, Northfield, which definitely brings some different shopping into the area.
So, to me the dramatic improvement is not so much on Stapelton proper but in the areas adjacent, which needed this incentive and help for urban improvement. I have been to the area many times, in the old days. I can remember how I felt when I went to a concert at the Colorado Women College, and had business at the hotels along Quebec. It was not the greatest experience.
Now, we have a Johnson and Wales University, the business are improving, the hotels have not closed and we have better transportation, and to me a safer feeling. Most importantly, it has stopped an area of the city from going into decline. So, even if Stapelton housing is expensive, the development has created good reasonable priced, improving and safer neighborhoods adjacent, that also can enjoy the amenities of Stapelton. I would say Bravo,to the City of Denver.
My thought on Lowry are similar, the area around the airbase had the typical trash that accumulates around many military posts--prostitutes, bars, pawn shops and really not so savory businesses. Now, we better development. It will allow housing areas to grow postively instead of falling into decay. I would point, as an example, to Windsor Gardens, on the south. This was, I believe the first, cooperative (condo) development in Denver. It is an aged restricted retirement develoment. When, the airbase existing, it had many military retirees because of the access to the BX and the base amenities. If the area, was left vacant, this would have decayed into bad housing. Now, it can still maintain being a good retirement community. So, again, even though Lowry, is not to the liking of some people, the area around has reaped a benefit. Again, another plus for Denver.
Livecontent
Last edited by livecontent; 08-11-2008 at 08:49 PM..
Bradburn1, after doing a little more research about Bradburn, I feel I have to come see it. It's very similar to our current neighborhood, except we have no park space or shops. I also like that you can build a custom home. I have two questions for you:
What is the drive time to the airport?
If you buy some dirt in Bradburn, how long do you have to build?
Thanks!
Time to airport from Bradburn, 30-40 minutes. Time for dirt start depends on the builder. Production builders (McStain, New Town Builders) 6-10 months to complete. Custom builders 12-18 months. If you buy a lot, I'm not sure how long until you are required to build something on it but I think 2 years but will have to check on that.
Price ranges: McStain 450-650 K, New Town 380-600 K, Custom 600-900 K. Prices are lower here than in Stapleton (around 50K lower for same house New Town builds in both places) and the neighborhood is smaller (more cozy) but Stapleton is much closer to airport (15-20 minutes). Both areas have great schools and are super kid friendly and social. Feel free to send me a private message if you have other questions about Bradburn.
No one wanted to see the old airport remain a barren wasteland, I'll give you that. Development of any kind would have been a positive, but I think these developers had an ingenious marketing plan. Build a bunch of houses that are uniquely unoriginal, pack them in a small space with a bunch of sidewalks (that exist in EVERY FREAKING DENVER NEIGHBORHOOD ANYWAY) charge more for it and sell it hook line and sinker to the "green" crowd. Call it "sustainable". I'll tell you what I think sustainable is... Buy a less expensive house that is still relatively close to shopping and recreation (pretty much anywhere in the metro area) and save your money. But, if being one in the crowd as long as it is the "in" crowd suits you, then enjoy Stapleton. You won't find me there.
Stapleton is typical "suburban sprawl"... only it lies within the City and County of Denver.
No one wanted to see the old airport remain a barren wasteland, I'll give you that. Development of any kind would have been a positive, but I think these developers had an ingenious marketing plan. Build a bunch of houses that are uniquely unoriginal, pack them in a small space with a bunch of sidewalks (that exist in EVERY FREAKING DENVER NEIGHBORHOOD ANYWAY) charge more for it and sell it hook line and sinker to the "green" crowd. Call it "sustainable". I'll tell you what I think sustainable is... Buy a less expensive house that is still relatively close to shopping and recreation (pretty much anywhere in the metro area) and save your money. But, if being one in the crowd as long as it is the "in" crowd suits you, then enjoy Stapleton. You won't find me there.
Stapleton is typical "suburban sprawl"... only it lies within the City and County of Denver.
I have to say I do agree with what you have said--
"Buy a less expensive house that is relatively close to shopping and recreation(pretty much anywhere in the metro area)..."
I have said that often that there are many neighborhood in the area that fit that description.
My point was only to point out that these developments do have a positive effect on the existing neighborhoods that are contiguous and they do bring a choice to some people that find them adaptable to their lives.
I would not live in many of these overpriced new urban neighborhoods because they tend to develop the expensive, fake imitation stores that only the new rich can afford. Also, I do agree that the marketing of these developments created a value that really does not exist, as you have said. I prefer the real neighborhoods where the real ethnic stores and basic economical shopping is available, but that is my choice.
With the Stapelton Development at least there is some basic shopping that was brought into the area that would not have existed. I do not think that there would have been another way to develop the site without developers knowing that they could have received more profit and marketed to the "in" crowd and created that mindset.
I'll tell you what I think sustainable is... Buy a less expensive house that is still relatively close to shopping and recreation (pretty much anywhere in the metro area) and save your money. But, if being one in the crowd as long as it is the "in" crowd suits you, then enjoy Stapleton. You won't find me there.
Add to bolded comment: ...shopping, recreation, and work. (IMO)
I'm definitely with ya in not following the "in" crowd.
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Originally Posted by bullfish15
Stapleton is typical "suburban sprawl"... only it lies within the City and County of Denver.
. Development of any kind would have been a positive
To me, this is a really short-sighted statement.
Quote:
Stapleton is typical "suburban sprawl"... only it lies within the City and County of Denver.
Do you mean it has a cookie cutter look? To me, Stapleton is built nothing like Highlands Ranch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by livecontent
I would not live in many of these overpriced new urban neighborhoods because they tend to develop the expensive, fake imitation stores that only the new rich can afford. Also, I do agree that the marketing of these developments created a value that really does not exist, as you have said. I prefer the real neighborhoods where the real ethnic stores and basic economical shopping is available, but that is my choice.
Quote:
With the Stapelton Development at least there is some basic shopping that was brought into the area that would not have existed. I do not think that there would have been another way to develop the site without developers knowing that they could have received more profit and marketed to the "in" crowd and created that mindset.
Livecontent
Yes.
Placemaking is an art. Mixed use development is the way to plan a city.
Obviously placemaking rubs some folks the wrong way.
But you know what rubbed me the wrong way? When people began popping their tops in both University Park and Wash Park, creating humungous monstrosities where there used to be single-story bungalows or cozy Tudors. In doing that, these home "improvers" created value that formerly did not exist.
But what value, and at what cost to the neighborhood vernacular?
Stapleton too has some "trophy" homes, but it also has low density, economically diverse residents and affordable housing. This is carefully planned development.
That is no way any sort of definition of sprawl.
I have a friend who has a salon/spa in Lowry. My kid's former pediatrician is in Lowry. These are real places, genuine destinations.
Of course these master-planned neighborhoods are not to everyone's taste. But as someone said, the only constant is change. I understand that some people are put off by what they perceive to be a Stepford Wives vibe at these master-planned communities. But the vibe in Denver has changed, too.
To me, development like Stapleton, Bradburn or Lowry is much preferable to some of the willynilly stuff I've seen happen in Denver.
In central Denver, we lived in a home built in 1916. We enjoyed the historic aspect of our home, and the neighborhood's mom and pop stores.
But many of those are gone now because the rent went up and the chains moved in.
What y'all call fake might, in ten years time, feel more organic. Capitol Hill used to be brand spanking new, too.
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