Can Detroit have high speed rail to Chicago and Toronto? (Warren: real estate, hotel)

[OyCrumbler]

Originally Posted by usroute10

The gentleman's point is that there is no train station downtown, which is the main business center for the city. People coming in from the high speed train from Chicago are mostly going to want to come downtown. The Baltimore station is underutilized because it is literally 3 miles north of city hall.

The Qline is not rapid transit, it gets stuck in heavy automobile traffic and gets stuck when a car or delivery truck is parked in front of it. It is not a form of rapid transit, which is what this thread is all about. Think about it. You take a 150 mile an hour train from Chicago to the Baltimore Station, but for the last 3 miles of the trip, get on the 10 mile per hour trolley from New Center to Downtown. Sounds bad.

Yes! Plus, there's the question of where a Detroit River crossing into Canada would make sense.

[Coldjensens]

Originally Posted by usroute10

T

The Qline is not rapid transit,

Understatement of the year. I can still walk faster than riding the Q line. It moves faster than I walk - when it moves. It is the general lack of movement that creates the delay problem.

[craig11152]

I paid zero attention to the QLine when it was discussed, proposed and built because I rarely go to Detroit other than for a game. But whoever thought paying that money for a trolly to share a lane with cars on a busy street like Woodward should be executed. Instead of a little gem it's an embarrassment.

[BugsyPal]

Originally Posted by usroute10

The gentleman's point is that there is no train station downtown, which is the main business center for the city. People coming in from the high speed train from Chicago are mostly going to want to come downtown. The Baltimore station is underutilized because it is literally 3 miles north of city hall.

The Qline is not rapid transit, it gets stuck in heavy automobile traffic and gets stuck when a car or delivery truck is parked in front of it. It is not a form of rapid transit, which is what this thread is all about. Think about it. You take a 150 mile an hour train from Chicago to the Baltimore Station, but for the last 3 miles of the trip, get on the 10 mile per hour trolley from New Center to Downtown. Sounds bad.

Original Michigan Central Depot was downtown; but due to fire things were moved out to the new location. Michigan Central Railroad Depot


However one reason the "new" Michigan Central station wasn't a huge hit came down to reasons already stated; it was too far from downtown which became an issue as years went on. Amtrak finally left the place in 2008 for mainly that reason.


There were always plans to link Michigan Central station with downtown by some sort of light rail or whatever, but it never happened.


Sadly too many times railroads built terminals/stations far away from downtown which helped kill them as years went on and things on ground changed. The old Buffalo Central terminal comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Central_Terminal

[usroute10]

Originally Posted by craig11152

I paid zero attention to the QLine when it was discussed, proposed and built because I rarely go to Detroit other than for a game. But whoever thought paying that money for a trolly to share a lane with cars on a busy street like Woodward should be executed. Instead of a little gem it's an embarrassment.

If you only live 40-something miles away, yet "rarely go to Detroit other than for a game", why do you post so much about it?

Most of the streetcars of yesteryear operated in traffic with cars, the difference between the QLine and the streetcars of yesterday is that those streetcars operated in the MIDDLE lanes and did not get stuck behind parked cars, idling cars, and delivery trucks like the QLine does. In addition, there are streetcars that have been recently built in Kansas City, Cincinnati, Atlanta, and Milwaukee that operate in the middle of car traffic.

[craig11152]

Originally Posted by usroute10

If you only live 40-something miles away, yet "rarely go to Detroit other than for a game", why do you post so much about it?

I actually don't post so much about Detroit. I post about mass transit because those proposals recently were going to affect my property taxes. I post about the high speed train because the current train runs through my town where it stops 6 times a day. Its a bigger issue than Detroit. Also my wife grew up in the Grosse Pointes and most of her large extended family lives in the suburbs immediately around Detroit. So occasionally Detroit issues have a direct impact on my loved ones.

Originally Posted by usroute10

Most of the streetcars of yesteryear operated in traffic with cars, the difference between the QLine and the streetcars of yesterday is that those streetcars operated in the MIDDLE lanes and did not get stuck behind parked cars, idling cars, and delivery trucks like the QLine does. In addition, there are streetcars that have been recently built in Kansas City, Cincinnati, Atlanta, and Milwaukee that operate in the middle of car traffic.

well they didn't make the Q-Line in the middle lane did they? So what's your point? The Q-line is a well thought out functioning gem because of Kansas City, Cincinnati, Atlanta, and Milwaukee? Or because of yesteryear?
Or do you think the Q-line stands on its own as a well thought out well functioning mode of transportation as it shares the right lane with cars on Woodward?

The one time I rode it there was no semblance of a schedule whatsoever. And while it was just once I can see other people with the same opinion that the Q-Line doesn't live up to hopes.

[craig11152]

I just spent a little youtube time "riding" those other streetcars.
I suppose if the intent of the Qline was and is to be a sort of tourist attraction then perhaps it serves its purpose.
But if the intent was and is for people to keep "appointments" like getting to work on time, catching another bus or a train I think it has a problem.

[usroute10]

Originally Posted by craig11152

I actually don't post so much about Detroit. I post about mass transit because those proposals recently were going to affect my property taxes. I post about the high speed train because the current train runs through my town where it stops 6 times a day. Its a bigger issue than Detroit. Also my wife grew up in the Grosse Pointes and most of her large extended family lives in the suburbs immediately around Detroit. So occasionally Detroit issues have a direct impact on my loved ones.




well they didn't make the Q-Line in the middle lane did they? So what's your point? The Q-line is a well thought out functioning gem because of Kansas City, Cincinnati, Atlanta, and Milwaukee? Or because of yesteryear?
Or do you think the Q-line stands on its own as a well thought out well functioning mode of transportation as it shares the right lane with cars on Woodward?

The one time I rode it there was no semblance of a schedule whatsoever. And while it was just once I can see other people with the same opinion that the Q-Line doesn't live up to hopes.

Sir,

You didn't say it was dumb to put the QLine in the rightmost/parking lane of Woodward (This is the most agregious absurdity of the Qline). Rather, you said:

But whoever thought paying that money for a trolly to share a lane with cars on a busy street like Woodward should be executed. Instead of a little gem it's an embarrassment.

You said it was dumb for streetcars to share a lane with cars on busy streets, which is how the streetcars of yesterday and the touristy streetcars of Cincinnati, KC, etc are set up.

I am not a fan of the QLine, but it serves the purpose of providing a splashy form of public transportation for yuppies and tourists, two groups that shun the bus and their stigma.

[usroute10]

End threadjack after this post:

Here is a historic photo of Detroit streetcar going through a neighborhood (Michigan Ave & Livernois). As you can see the streetcars are in the middle of the road, plus precluding the interruption in services by parked cars and delivery trucks that the QLine suffers from.

So as you can see, streetcars were implemented on busy roads in auto traffic:

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by BugsyPal

Original Michigan Central Depot was downtown; but due to fire things were moved out to the new location. Michigan Central Railroad Depot


However one reason the "new" Michigan Central station wasn't a huge hit came down to reasons already stated; it was too far from downtown which became an issue as years went on. Amtrak finally left the place in 2008 for mainly that reason.


There were always plans to link Michigan Central station with downtown by some sort of light rail or whatever, but it never happened.


Sadly too many times railroads built terminals/stations far away from downtown which helped kill them as years went on and things on ground changed. The old Buffalo Central terminal comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Central_Terminal

Yes, you're right -- many big city train stations/terminals were built away their downtowns. I suspect a part of it was because of the soot and smoke of the steam engines which were train mainstays when most of these terminals were established made these terminals incompatible with dense, pristine downtown buildings.

Cleveland was one of the rare cities (along with New York) to build its terminal, Union Station/Terminal Tower (now Tower City) right in the core of the CBD. One reason is that both Tower City and NYC's Grand Central and Penn Station opened using electric trains hauling passenger cars in and out; Cleveland specifically banned steam engines from Terminal Tower but, then, diesel engines became less of an issue esp given Cleveland's overall light schedule. But then Cleveland, in its infinite wisdom, decided to abandon Tower City completely as a rail passenger terminal (only the city's rapid transit system still uses it as such), and moved to a small building, with 1 platform, to handle the, now, 2 Amtrak round trips that pass through in the wee hours of the morning. The old union station waiting area has been expanded and trasformed into The Avenue at Tower City shopping mall, which has been struggling to keep any quality stores in recent years despite maintaining its beauty and functionality in its connectivity to hotels, office buildings and sports arenas ... and the Rapid, of course.