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indentured servant brings up some really good points......cause and effect for example. white people treated them HORRIBLY at one point and we are still dealing with the effects of that. to deny them this causes more problems and angst. i think that america should acknowledge slavery in some way, we need to heal those wounds. to be so flippant and say 'get over it' is just f'ing rude. we all live here together, people of all races. we have to work together and respect each others struggles. if we can't do that then nobody wins. black people have made mistakes, acting out of emotion that's true. but don't sit and blame them for everything. blaming one side for everything is ludicrous, when everyone has contributed to this problem, which affects our entire country...black or white. if anyone thinks that slavery can be so easily dismissed then be prepared to deal with anger, and yes, black history MONTH, and extremists like jesse jackson, etc. that is the effect from this country never acknowledging the pain it caused, never being truly sorry.
its not about feeling guilty, its about healing a wound in our country. i think the white male ego has dominated too long, has spun this world out of control, and needs to step down so we can find balance. otherwise everyone needs to split up into their own separate countries....if we can't work together then forget it. this is getting ridiculous.
I can't believe this thread has turned into a race discussion. What a farce.
Maybe we should just Balkanize the US
Why can't you believe that when RACE was a major theme of the article?
The Attorney General was correct…..America is a nation of cowards when dealing with the issue of race. You know what the FEAR is....the fear is that if you talk about race.....something might be revealed about yourself that you have either denied or tried to keep hidden.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 03-04-2009 at 10:36 AM..
Indentured Servant, I too am a proud black citizen.
But I really must ask, hypothetically speaking.
If we recieve a full on coronated admission and apology of past atrocities by the state, will that really solve anything?
Will that really do anything except make certain parts of the black populace "feel better"?
I would love to see it, don't get me wrong. But I think we are lying to ourselves if we think that really solves anything.
Admittedly, I don't live in Detroit. But looking from the outside in, sometimes it is a little hard to buy the city vs. suburb argument on both sides.
These days, I believe more white kids growing up don't look at the race issue as much as their parents did, they just see us another group of people.
It's harsh, but I kinda side with the Bill Cosby "pound cake speech" contingent on this one to a certain degree. Even given the disparities outlined so well before, it doesn't change the fact that we are more in control of our destiny then we were 40 years ago. And it is highly possible that we rely too much on victimization, this is understandable for people of a certain generation.
Even people of a certain socio-economic set, the whole bootstraps notion is a little simple (it's not how it was when my grampa was a kid and you could just go work in the factory). But I think what many otherwise moderate whites are frankly getting tired of is the continued rehashing of old hard line seperatist arguments.
If the coverage of the Cobo Hall fiasco has any water, then even with the alleged shortcomings in labor and control provisions in the contract (which is justifiable in contesting), the City Council members who constantly framed the white vs. black. urban vs. suburbs, were JUST PLAIN UNPROFESSIONAL. Even the black columnist Stephen Henderson of the perrenially liberal Freep called the council out, BIG TIME. Although I am not a conservative, the right wing Detroit News made a really good point: If that were an all white city council in Livonia carrying on like that, what woud be the response?
You may have some rascists (hard line or otherwise) in Oakland and Macomb, but I am willing to bet there are a whole lot of otherwise middle of the road people who would be willing to cooperate if they didn't see the show that the City Council put on.
I am facinated by the city of Detroit as a city where primarily black people reside, similarly to Atlanta. And as a fan of the old school industrial cities that helped build this nation, I hope and look forward to the day that it suceeds. However, it would seem that the ATL has a number on Detroit in terms of productivity and progress, buisness wise. Now that is not to say there are no problems with their regional governance as well (check the MARTA public transit system debacle).
But I think personally, Detroit will have to tone down the 1960 fire in the belly us vs. them mentality. Such black leadership for a city is getting terribly outdated in an age of Philly's Micheal Nutter, Atlanta's Shirley Franklin, DC's Adrian Fenty. Newark's Cory Booker and the big man Obama, himself.
I am under the impression that the great MLK and his compatriots fought so that we could have equal representation as individuals with all that that entails.
Simply put the constant race baiting has to stop, and if WDET's reporting of the audiences's sympathies are true at all, then some of the city's population is going to have to learn to compromise or adjust their attitudes to some extent. For all the good that the controversial Young and Kilpatrick administrations have done, the city is shrinking and contracting in unhealthy ways (compare with pittsburgh). Race isn't the only problem it's that the leadership has shown little evidence that it is able to provide a real revatilization and reinvigoration of the city and therefore become a real boon to the region.
Detroit has much potential, but the entire region is interconnected and not really all that healthy compared to other regions. Without strong cooperation, the city (and region as a whole) will continue to suffer.
Indentured Servant, I too am a proud black citizen.
But I really must ask, hypothetically speaking.
If we recieve a full on coronated admission and apology of past atrocities by the state, will that really solve anything?
Will that really do anything except make certain parts of the black populace "feel better"?
I would love to see it, don't get me wrong. But I think we are lying to ourselves if we think that really solves anything.
Admittedly, I don't live in Detroit. But looking from the outside in, sometimes it is a little hard to buy the city vs. suburb argument on both sides.
These days, I believe more white kids growing up don't look at the race issue as much as their parents did, they just see us another group of people.
It's harsh, but I kinda side with the Bill Cosby "pound cake speech" contingent on this one to a certain degree. Even given the disparities outlined so well before, it doesn't change the fact that we are more in control of our destiny then we were 40 years ago. And it is highly possible that we rely too much on victimization, this is understandable for people of a certain generation.
Even people of a certain socio-economic set, the whole bootstraps notion is a little simple (it's not how it was when my grampa was a kid and you could just go work in the factory). But I think what many otherwise moderate whites are frankly getting tired of is the continued rehashing of old hard line seperatist arguments.
If the coverage of the Cobo Hall fiasco has any water, then even with the alleged shortcomings in labor and control provisions in the contract (which is justifiable in contesting), the City Council members who constantly framed the white vs. black. urban vs. suburbs, were JUST PLAIN UNPROFESSIONAL. Even the black columnist Stephen Henderson of the perrenially liberal Freep called the council out, BIG TIME. Although I am not a conservative, the right wing Detroit News made a really good point: If that were an all white city council in Livonia carrying on like that, what woud be the response?
You may have some rascists (hard line or otherwise) in Oakland and Macomb, but I am willing to bet there are a whole lot of otherwise middle of the road people who would be willing to cooperate if they didn't see the show that the City Council put on.
I am facinated by the city of Detroit as a city where primarily black people reside, similarly to Atlanta. And as a fan of the old school industrial cities that helped build this nation, I hope and look forward to the day that it suceeds. However, it would seem that the ATL has a number on Detroit in terms of productivity and progress, buisness wise. Now that is not to say there are no problems with their regional governance as well (check the MARTA public transit system debacle).
But I think personally, Detroit will have to tone down the 1960 fire in the belly us vs. them mentality. Such black leadership for a city is getting terribly outdated in an age of Philly's Micheal Nutter, Atlanta's Shirley Franklin, DC's Adrian Fenty. Newark's Cory Booker and the big man Obama, himself.
I am under the impression that the great MLK and his compatriots fought so that we could have equal representation as individuals with all that that entails.
Simply put the constant race baiting has to stop, and if WDET's reporting of the audiences's sympathies are true at all, then some of the city's population is going to have to learn to compromise or adjust their attitudes to some extent. For all the good that the controversial Young and Kilpatrick administrations have done, the city is shrinking and contracting in unhealthy ways (compare with pittsburgh). Race isn't the only problem it's that the leadership has shown little evidence that it is able to provide a real revatilization and reinvigoration of the city and therefore become a real boon to the region.
Detroit has much potential, but the entire region is interconnected and not really all that healthy compared to other regions. Without strong cooperation, the city (and region as a whole) will continue to suffer.
That is a truly great post!!! I'd rep you but I can't right now.
Indentured Servant, I too am a proud black citizen.
But I really must ask, hypothetically speaking.
If we recieve a full on coronated admission and apology of past atrocities by the state, will that really solve anything?
Will that really do anything except make certain parts of the black populace "feel better"?
I would love to see it, don't get me wrong. But I think we are lying to ourselves if we think that really solves anything.
Admittedly, I don't live in Detroit. But looking from the outside in, sometimes it is a little hard to buy the city vs. suburb argument on both sides.
These days, I believe more white kids growing up don't look at the race issue as much as their parents did, they just see us another group of people.
It's harsh, but I kinda side with the Bill Cosby "pound cake speech" contingent on this one to a certain degree. Even given the disparities outlined so well before, it doesn't change the fact that we are more in control of our destiny then we were 40 years ago. And it is highly possible that we rely too much on victimization, this is understandable for people of a certain generation.
Even people of a certain socio-economic set, the whole bootstraps notion is a little simple (it's not how it was when my grampa was a kid and you could just go work in the factory). But I think what many otherwise moderate whites are frankly getting tired of is the continued rehashing of old hard line seperatist arguments.
If the coverage of the Cobo Hall fiasco has any water, then even with the alleged shortcomings in labor and control provisions in the contract (which is justifiable in contesting), the City Council members who constantly framed the white vs. black. urban vs. suburbs, were JUST PLAIN UNPROFESSIONAL. Even the black columnist Stephen Henderson of the perrenially liberal Freep called the council out, BIG TIME. Although I am not a conservative, the right wing Detroit News made a really good point: If that were an all white city council in Livonia carrying on like that, what woud be the response?
You may have some rascists (hard line or otherwise) in Oakland and Macomb, but I am willing to bet there are a whole lot of otherwise middle of the road people who would be willing to cooperate if they didn't see the show that the City Council put on.
I am facinated by the city of Detroit as a city where primarily black people reside, similarly to Atlanta. And as a fan of the old school industrial cities that helped build this nation, I hope and look forward to the day that it suceeds. However, it would seem that the ATL has a number on Detroit in terms of productivity and progress, buisness wise. Now that is not to say there are no problems with their regional governance as well (check the MARTA public transit system debacle).
But I think personally, Detroit will have to tone down the 1960 fire in the belly us vs. them mentality. Such black leadership for a city is getting terribly outdated in an age of Philly's Micheal Nutter, Atlanta's Shirley Franklin, DC's Adrian Fenty. Newark's Cory Booker and the big man Obama, himself.
I am under the impression that the great MLK and his compatriots fought so that we could have equal representation as individuals with all that that entails.
Simply put the constant race baiting has to stop, and if WDET's reporting of the audiences's sympathies are true at all, then some of the city's population is going to have to learn to compromise or adjust their attitudes to some extent. For all the good that the controversial Young and Kilpatrick administrations have done, the city is shrinking and contracting in unhealthy ways (compare with pittsburgh). Race isn't the only problem it's that the leadership has shown little evidence that it is able to provide a real revatilization and reinvigoration of the city and therefore become a real boon to the region.
Detroit has much potential, but the entire region is interconnected and not really all that healthy compared to other regions. Without strong cooperation, the city (and region as a whole) will continue to suffer.
Waltlantz, the first thing to make note of is that in nothing that I have written have I asked FOR ANYTHING from society or white America. I NEVER asked for an apology nor do I feel an apology that has to be asked for would be sincere in the first place. When America comes to that point on its own….without prodding, pressure or threats….then I would accept it as sincere. Otherwise, the nation can keep it. On that note, America sees a slippery slope and hence sees any apology as opening up the door for material or monetary compensation of some sort, as well as, an admission of responsibility. Thus, America is far, far from an apology and I am not stupid enough to ask or expect one. It’s a total waste of time.
You are correct in that young white kids are less tuned to race than the older generations. That is a double edge sword, however. It’s good from the point of view that they are not actively trying to keep black people down, but it’s bad from the perspective that they cannot understand why older blacks are making the arguments that they are making and hence see the black people making the arguments as the problem. The legacy effect of past racism is current socioeconomic racial inequality. Whether or not whites of today are racist or not is not germane to the consequence of the actions of past whites. Just because a company is under new management does not mean that the people hurt by the practices of past management all of a sudden are miraculously healed or made solvent. Moreover, if they had their way, new management and ownership would rather not inherit the liabilities created by past management and owners. That way they can maximize profit. Yet, at the same time, they want to inherit the assets, goodwill and customer base created by the past owners. Hence, this is why the law is such that when you inherit an estate or take over a business, you inherit the assets and liabilities of the entity. In regards to America, Americans want the assets from the past…..but not the liabilities. They have no trouble enjoying the fruits created by others in the past, that they in no way help create, yet, they want to deny any and all liabilities born in the past based upon the rationalization that they had no part in creating the problem.
I look at this situation scientifically and not emotionally. I am not concerned about could have, would have, should have etc. I am simply concerned with the science of cause and effect, actions and reactions and facts. Most of you are on an emotional plane. I agree that there are a lot of things that I wish black people would do or would not do. However, I fundamentally understand that the reason they do or do not do something is born from their humanity. If I start with the assumption that regardless of race, our humanity is the same, then the only thing that separates our outcomes is environment and experience (past and present). If I believe that there are substantive differences between the humanity of the races, in that some are inferior and some superior in their capacities as humans, then, and only then, can I be open to dismissing environment and experience (past and present).
I believe that had whites had the experience of blacks and blacks the experience of whites, blacks would be hoping and arguing that whites would “get over it” while whites would be using their past treatment to explain their socioeconomic disenfranchisement relative to blacks. Many whites cannot even entertain this hypothetical as they cannot even entertain the thought of blacks ever being able to create the type of society and living standards as white, let alone be able to ever oppress whites due to their subconscious or conscious belief in white genetic superiority…..in intellect, if nothing else.
I believe that had whites had the experience of blacks and blacks the experience of whites, blacks would be hoping and arguing that whites would “get over it” while whites would be using their past treatment to explain their socioeconomic disenfranchisement relative to blacks. Many whites cannot even entertain this hypothetical as they cannot even entertain the thought of blacks ever being able to create the type of society and living standards as white, let alone be able to ever oppress whites due to their subconscious or conscious belief in white genetic superiority…..in intellect, if nothing else.
Indentured Servant - I apologize if you took my phrase "get over it" as directed to blacks - it clearly come off wrong, as I meant it to everyone, regardless of color. As you and others have mentioned the younger generation being colorblind, I am a part of this generation. My input on this thread is mainly pointing out my frustration that we all are continually mired down by racists on both sides, which has seemingly gotten us nowhere. What can we do to change this?
Waltlantz, the first thing to make note of is that in nothing that I have written have I asked FOR ANYTHING from society or white America. I NEVER asked for an apology nor do I feel an apology that has to be asked for would be sincere in the first place. When America comes to that point on its own….without prodding, pressure or threats….then I would accept it as sincere. Otherwise, the nation can keep it. On that note, America sees a slippery slope and hence sees any apology as opening up the door for material or monetary compensation of some sort, as well as, an admission of responsibility. Thus, America is far, far from an apology and I am not stupid enough to ask or expect one. It’s a total waste of time.
You are correct in that young white kids are less tuned to race than the older generations. That is a double edge sword, however. It’s good from the point of view that they are not actively trying to keep black people down, but it’s bad from the perspective that they cannot understand why older blacks are making the arguments that they are making and hence see the black people making the arguments as the problem. The legacy effect of past racism is current socioeconomic racial inequality. Whether or not whites of today are racist or not is not germane to the consequence of the actions of past whites. Just because a company is under new management does not mean that the people hurt by the practices of past management all of a sudden are miraculously healed or made solvent. Moreover, if they had their way, new management and ownership would rather not inherit the liabilities created by past management and owners. That way they can maximize profit. Yet, at the same time, they want to inherit the assets, goodwill and customer base created by the past owners. Hence, this is why the law is such that when you inherit an estate or take over a business, you inherit the assets and liabilities of the entity. In regards to America, Americans want the assets from the past…..but not the liabilities. They have no trouble enjoying the fruits created by others in the past, that they in no way help create, yet, they want to deny any and all liabilities born in the past based upon the rationalization that they had no part in creating the problem.
I look at this situation scientifically and not emotionally. I am not concerned about could have, would have, should have etc. I am simply concerned with the science of cause and effect, actions and reactions and facts. Most of you are on an emotional plane. I agree that there are a lot of things that I wish black people would do or would not do. However, I fundamentally understand that the reason they do or do not do something is born from their humanity. If I start with the assumption that regardless of race, our humanity is the same, then the only thing that separates our outcomes is environment and experience (past and present). If I believe that there are substantive differences between the humanity of the races, in that some are inferior and some superior in their capacities as humans, then, and only then, can I be open to dismissing environment and experience (past and present).
I believe that had whites had the experience of blacks and blacks the experience of whites, blacks would be hoping and arguing that whites would “get over it” while whites would be using their past treatment to explain their socioeconomic disenfranchisement relative to blacks. Many whites cannot even entertain this hypothetical as they cannot even entertain the thought of blacks ever being able to create the type of society and living standards as white, let alone be able to ever oppress whites due to their subconscious or conscious belief in white genetic superiority…..in intellect, if nothing else.
I'll give you that part, cause it has solvency. I accept and am aware of that. Still I believe that the Cobo deal still laid bare a severe lack of professionalism all else neutral. Being concerned for city labor contracts is one thing, but the OVERREACTING is a huge detriment to the image of the council and the citizens who appointed them. The immediate jumping the gun to quickly say "RACISM" in that case, I still find totally unjustified. I really hate to seem like I am hating on the people of the city, but knee jerk reactions like that only drive the situation downward.
I'll give you that part, cause it has solvency. I accept and am aware of that. Still I believe that the Cobo deal still laid bare a severe lack of professionalism all else neutral. Being concerned for city labor contracts is one thing, but the OVERREACTING is a huge detriment to the image of the council and the citizens who appointed them. The immediate jumping the gun to quickly say "RACISM" in that case, I still find totally unjustified. I really hate to seem like I am hating on the people of the city, but knee jerk reactions like that only drive the situation downward.
Did someone state "Racism" in that article? I think it is more of a fear of getting locked out, which has been an issue in the Detroit area. Unfortunately, this area has some wounds to heal with race and sometimes things work hand and hand.
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It's harsh but Detroit has to step up
