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None of this is very accurate. If you observe more primitive societies, or heck observe our closest living ancestors, you'll find that they weren't particularly active. People work far more today then they use to in the past...which is interesting in itself. All observed primitive societies had food traditions and certainly ate out of pleasure, even non-human primates do it. Though food scarcity was likely to be a common issue in primitive societies, it wasn't so much an issue (at least routinely) in more complex societies. How common was obesity in ancient civilizations? Not at all.....yet these societies weren't being confronted with routine food scarcity.
People didn't just recently start to enjoy eating, its built into our DNA. What has changed is the sorts of foods at the end of our fork, obesity has only become widespread with the introduction of industrial food production.
Sure, but if you're eating the right sort of foods you don't need to worry yourself about the calorie content...it will always be within reason and your body will maintain a healthy weight.
That is unrealistic on so many levels. While healthy people will eat healthy foods there are always going to be some foods that are more calorie dense and eating more of them will result in weight gain. I love avocados but I eat them in moderation.
I get what you are saying, but you cannot dismiss calories and the fact that people need to be mindful of how much food they are eating, healthy or not.
That is unrealistic on so many levels. While healthy people will eat healthy foods there are always going to be some foods that are more calorie dense and eating more of them will result in weight gain. I love avocados but I eat them in moderation.
What is unrealistic? The fact that in principle one would gain weight if they ate too much food doesn't mean that they have to worry about calories. The important question is whether they would over eat in the absence of artificial foods.
Are humans some how unique? Are we the only species on the plant that isn't able to maintain a healthy weight without counting calories?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyd609
I get what you are saying, but you cannot dismiss calories and the fact that people need to be mindful of how much food they are eating, healthy or not.
Why can't I dismiss these things? Humans, and our ancestors, have maintained healthy weights for millions of years without knowing anything about calories or any other nutritional knowledge. Why now...are these things important? Couldn't have anything to do with our artificial diet could it?
What percent of the typical American grocery store would you say is dedicated to whole plant foods? 10% or so?
What is unrealistic? The fact that in principle one would gain weight if they ate too much food doesn't mean that they have to worry about calories. The important question is whether they would over eat in the absence of artificial foods.
Are humans some how unique? Are we the only species on the plant that isn't able to maintain a healthy weight without counting calories?
Why can't I dismiss these things? Humans, and our ancestors, have maintained healthy weights for millions of years without knowing anything about calories or any other nutritional knowledge. Why now...are these things important? Couldn't have anything to do with our artificial diet could it?
What percent of the typical American grocery store would you say is dedicated to whole plant foods? 10% or so?
I get what you are saying, but comparing ourself to our ancestors is ridiculous because we live such different lives now. People started gaining weight as soon as they stopped farming and hunting and the world became industrialized. Money bought food, and lots of money bought lots of food. Thats why at one time to be overweight was a symbol of wealth.
Before the car people walked. Before the TV people entertained themselves by being more active. Before the remote control people got up to change the channel, before video games kids went outside to play, before fast food people actually had to cook their meals....the list goes on and on. So expecting people to embrace the past aint gonna happen. People are willing to throw their lives away because they overeat and do not move their bodies.
There is no simple solution... and until we come up with one, calories count.
I agree with this statement - but what I don't agree with is your assertion that pretty much every single food item in the American diet is to blame.
I didn't blame "every singe food item", but the American diet has become increasingly artificial to the point where around ~90% of our grocery stores are filled with artificial foods or foods that were lightly consumed in the past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sciameriken
Diets like South Beach are designed to help navigate the American diet minefield. I concur that the plant based whole foods diet is probably one of the most effective, not without its own downsides, but for some people they do not want a major departure from their lifestyle to get healthier.
How exactly does it help? All it does is get people to eat a diet that is higher in animal fat and protein.
What are the downsides of a plant based whole foods diet?
As far as the South Beach being a "new innovation", no, low-carb diets have been around since the 70's. Though the "explanations" may be different, the end result of the South Beach diet is not dramatically different than other low-carb diets. Namely, a diet that is rich in animal fat and protein and low (calorie wise) in plant based foods.
I didn't blame "every singe food item", but the American diet has become increasingly artificial to the point where around ~90% of our grocery stores are filled with artificial foods or foods that were lightly consumed in the past.
How exactly does it help? All it does is get people to eat a diet that is higher in animal fat and protein.
What are the downsides of a plant based whole foods diet?
As far as the South Beach being a "new innovation", no, low-carb diets have been around since the 70's. Though the "explanations" may be different, the end result of the South Beach diet is not dramatically different than other low-carb diets. Namely, a diet that is rich in animal fat and protein and low (calorie wise) in plant based foods.
I am just pulling a random recipe out of the second book, "The South Beach Wake up call"
Quote:
Lentil -Bulgur Salad with Summer Squash and Walnuts
3/4 cup lentils
1/2 cup bulgur
a pinch plus 1/2 teaspoon salt
3 teaspoons extra-virgin olive oil
1 medium shallot, minced
2 small yellow squash
1 garlic clove
1 teaspoon grated lemon zest
2 tablespoons chopped fresh tarragon
2 tablespoons fresh lemon juice
freshly ground black pepper to taste
1/3 cup chopped walnuts
Does this sound like introducing more animal protein and fat? Recipes that do call for meat call for free range organic. - this is from wikipedia "Agatston was aware of the low-carbohydrate diet popularized by Robert Atkins in the 1970s, but he feared that this diet would lead to too few carbohydrates, too much saturated fat, too little fiber, and a number of maladies including an increased risk of heart disease."
Bottom line is the south beach diet is not what you think it is.
Anyways - lets move on to the plant based whole foods diet. I actually think this is the best diet for health and longevity. However, the downsides are that it requires a lot of education (knowing what to eat to avoid vitamin deficiencies), effort(finding affordable fresh healthy vegetables -and avoid pesticides) and an ability to cook (to maintain variety an keep the diet exciting) to make it work. Getting past these difficulties is well worth it but it just won't work with some people...
Does this sound like introducing more animal protein and fat? Recipes that do call for meat call for free range organic.
That is a single recipe...and it rather obviously not "random". Never did I suggest that the South Beach diet is 100% animal fat and protein, so digging up a single recipe hardly refutes what I'm saying.
The South Beach Diet promotes the consumption of animal fat and protein...why? Because the macro nutrient ratios that the diet advocates are very difficult to achieve with plant-based foods. Plant-based sources of protein are either very high in carb or very high in fat, meat is the only source of low-fat, low-carb protein.
Regardless, the South Beach Diet is just a repackaged Atkins diet that pays lip-service to the idea that saturated fat is bad for you. That is, South Beach is just Atkins minus some saturated fat and perhaps a bit lower in overall fat as well. And in both cases they take the typical American diet...remove some soda, candy, etc... add some fat and protein and that's that. The fact that they pay lip-service to eating vegetables just obfuscates the fact that they are more or less excuses to eat the typical American diet.....and the outcomes show it. Despite being around since the 70's and despite widespread popularity over the last decade low-carb diets have done absolutely nothing to slow the rate of obesity in this country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sciameriken
Anyways - lets move on to the plant based whole foods diet. I actually think this is the best diet for health and longevity. However, the downsides are that it requires a lot of education (knowing what to eat to avoid vitamin deficiencies), effort(finding affordable fresh healthy vegetables -and avoid pesticides) and an ability to cook (to maintain variety an keep the diet exciting) to make it work.
These aren't real downsides, in fact the first is just a dietary myth:
1.) People consuming a plant-based diet have to worry about vitamin deficiencies.
This one is actually pretty ironic, as the shoe is entirely on the other foot. The implicit idea here is that meat some how magically resolves people's dietary deficiencies and absolves them from worrying about dietary deficiencies. This is a strange idea given that the source for most micro-nutrients (vitamins, etc) is from.....plants. The idea that people consuming a whole plant-based diet need to worry about deficiencies more than others is...entirely backwards.
Now, in fairness there is one minor issue vegans should address. It is still unknown whether humans can produce sufficient b12 within their guts and our natural, non-animal, sources of b12 are largely stripped away by modern sanitization (traditionally it would be in soil and water). So, as an insurance policy, if a vegan isn't consuming any soy milk, cereal (these are fortified with b12), they should probably take a weekly b12 supplement. That doesn't require a lot of education though....
The other issues you bring up aren't unique to plant-based folks, in fact meat contains higher levels of some pesticides because pesticide resides concentrate in their flesh after consumption. The same can be said of other industrial toxins, as is well known in the case of mercury in fish. One of the easiest ways to reduce your overall dietary expose to toxins is to...well eat less meat, eggs and dairy.
There are no "downsides" to a whole plant-based diet, the only issue is that Americans are entirely uninterested in it and make up a number of excuses as to why they won't even try it. Partly the avoidance is due to a huge amount of misinformation propagated by meat, dairy, sugar, etc business interests.
That is a single recipe...and it rather obviously not "random". Never did I suggest that the South Beach diet is 100% animal fat and protein, so digging up a single recipe hardly refutes what I'm saying.
The South Beach Diet promotes the consumption of animal fat and protein...why? Because the macro nutrient ratios that the diet advocates are very difficult to achieve with plant-based foods. Plant-based sources of protein are either very high in carb or very high in fat, meat is the only source of low-fat, low-carb protein.
Regardless, the South Beach Diet is just a repackaged Atkins diet that pays lip-service to the idea that saturated fat is bad for you. That is, South Beach is just Atkins minus some saturated fat and perhaps a bit lower in overall fat as well. And in both cases they take the typical American diet...remove some soda, candy, etc... add some fat and protein and that's that. The fact that they pay lip-service to eating vegetables just obfuscates the fact that they are more or less excuses to eat the typical American diet.....and the outcomes show it. Despite being around since the 70's and despite widespread popularity over the last decade low-carb diets have done absolutely nothing to slow the rate of obesity in this country.
These aren't real downsides, in fact the first is just a dietary myth:
...
There are no "downsides" to a whole plant-based diet, the only issue is that Americans are entirely uninterested in it and make up a number of excuses as to why they won't even try it. Partly the avoidance is due to a huge amount of misinformation propagated by meat, dairy, sugar, etc business interests.
You've said this bolded section over and over despite the fact that you've never read the book. Blaming the south beach diet for failure to slow down the rate of obesity is a meaningless argument as well - how long has the plant based whole foods diet been around?
As far as downsides - yes those are downsides and part of the learning curve needed to be overcome to be successful. All diets have a learning curve, the plant based whole foods is steeper - and I am not paid off by the dairy and meat industry. In fact I contribute to a upstart vegetarian based food service and overcoming this learning curve is essential to building a stronger customer base.
Reduction of obesity in this country and this world is an important problem that needs to be addressed and I think it is important to keep an open mind to any diet strategy.
but comparing ourself to our ancestors is ridiculous because we live such different lives now. People started gaining weight as soon as they stopped farming and hunting and the world became industrialized.
Its not ridiculous at all, instead its an easy way to see what is going wrong with today's society in terms of weight. As for as health goes, the primarily change over the last 100 years has been what we put in our mouths. Its changed dramatically where as changes in our activity levels hasn't changed nearly as much. The majority of Americans stopped hunting and farming over 100 years ago, yet the biggest gains in obesity have occurred over the last 50 years and most aggressively over the last 30.
Clearly, if our activity level is a factor its a modest contributing factor and not the primary cause. But its not even clear if its a factor at all, human populations have a various activity levels and there is no reason to believe that the body's weight maintaining mechanism work better at high activity levels than they do at lower activity levels. Furthermore, the correlation between lower activity and obesity isn't powerful either since obesity results in lower activity levels! So...which came first? At the very least you know they feed off each other...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckyd609
There is no simple solution... and until we come up with one, calories count.
But there is a simple solution: eat a whole foods diet that is largely** composed of plants. Now is it a solution people are interested in hearing? Not really....but part of the blame is on the companies making America's toxic food.
**I don't think there is any research that shows that a whole foods diet that is entirely plant-based is superior to one that is mostly plant-based with small amounts of animal products (< 10%). So, being vegan isn't necessary...just a diet that is 90%+ derived from whole plant foods.
That is a single recipe...and it rather obviously not "random". Never did I suggest that the South Beach diet is 100% animal fat and protein, so digging up a single recipe hardly refutes what I'm saying.
The South Beach Diet promotes the consumption of animal fat and protein...why? Because the macro nutrient ratios that the diet advocates are very difficult to achieve with plant-based foods. Plant-based sources of protein are either very high in carb or very high in fat, meat is the only source of low-fat, low-carb protein.
Regardless, the South Beach Diet is just a repackaged Atkins diet that pays lip-service to the idea that saturated fat is bad for you. That is, South Beach is just Atkins minus some saturated fat and perhaps a bit lower in overall fat as well. And in both cases they take the typical American diet...remove some soda, candy, etc... add some fat and protein and that's that. The fact that they pay lip-service to eating vegetables just obfuscates the fact that they are more or less excuses to eat the typical American diet.....and the outcomes show it. Despite being around since the 70's and despite widespread popularity over the last decade low-carb diets have done absolutely nothing to slow the rate of obesity in this country.
These aren't real downsides, in fact the first is just a dietary myth:
1.) People consuming a plant-based diet have to worry about vitamin deficiencies.
This one is actually pretty ironic, as the shoe is entirely on the other foot. The implicit idea here is that meat some how magically resolves people's dietary deficiencies and absolves them from worrying about dietary deficiencies. This is a strange idea given that the source for most micro-nutrients (vitamins, etc) is from.....plants. The idea that people consuming a whole plant-based diet need to worry about deficiencies more than others is...entirely backwards.
Now, in fairness there is one minor issue vegans should address. It is still unknown whether humans can produce sufficient b12 within their guts and our natural, non-animal, sources of b12 are largely stripped away by modern sanitization (traditionally it would be in soil and water). So, as an insurance policy, if a vegan isn't consuming any soy milk, cereal (these are fortified with b12), they should probably take a weekly b12 supplement. That doesn't require a lot of education though....
The other issues you bring up aren't unique to plant-based folks, in fact meat contains higher levels of some pesticides because pesticide resides concentrate in their flesh after consumption. The same can be said of other industrial toxins, as is well known in the case of mercury in fish. One of the easiest ways to reduce your overall dietary expose to toxins is to...well eat less meat, eggs and dairy.
There are no "downsides" to a whole plant-based diet, the only issue is that Americans are entirely uninterested in it and make up a number of excuses as to why they won't even try it. Partly the avoidance is due to a huge amount of misinformation propagated by meat, dairy, sugar, etc business interests.
So if the "only issue" is that Americans are uninterested...
then it isn't an issue at all, that the second-most common ingredient in Russian main courses is meat or fish, with the primary ingredient being cabbage. You won't find many vegetarians in Russia, or vegetarian restaurants.
or how about Japan, where the primary main course ingredient is fish, and pork?
Perhaps you won't find issue with random and sundry tribes of Africa, that hunt game for their families, and the idea of eschewing meat would have you tossed out of the territory.
None of those people are Americans, yet they eat plenty of meat.
Perhaps your problem is just with Americans, in general, and you're using diet as the "excuse of the day" to rail on us. If that's the case, I direct you to some other forum. Perhaps World, or Politics.
You've said this bolded section over and over despite the fact that you've never read the book. Blaming the south beach diet for failure to slow down the rate of obesity is a meaningless argument as well - how long has the plant based whole foods diet been around?
Despite the fact? I'm sorry....when did I ever say I never read the book? That is merely something you keep repeating in an attempt to discredit my claims. In fact, most of your response to me has been "that isn't right...you don't know the diet". You've made little attempt to show why I'm wrong. For example, show me how you can maintain a low carb and high protein diet without consuming flesh foods. How does it work? The biggest sources of plant protein are loaded with carbs, even the lentil has more than double the amount of carbs as protein. Maybe some delicate mix of legumes, nuts and something else would do it....but I'm not seeing it.
As far as "blaming the South Beach diet", you're missing an important part of my comment. Low-carb diets have been the most popular diets over the last decade on the other hand....whole food plant based diets? Not very much. Millions of Americans have tried low-carb diets, where as most are motivated to try a plant based diet after they suffer a major heart attack, etc. So then, given their widespread popularity don't you think that if they had any merit then we'd see some societal results? Heck...we haven't even seen a reduction in the rate of increase! Americans have gotten more obese at a faster rate the last decade than before!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sciameriken
All diets have a learning curve, the plant based whole foods is steeper - and I am not paid off by the dairy and meat industry. In fact I contribute to a upstart vegetarian based food service and overcoming this learning curve is essential to building a stronger customer base.
I never suggest you were "paid off by the dairy and meat industry", but the dairy and meat industry starts marketing to Americans in elementary school and their marketing effects how just about everyone thinks about food. Your comments about deficiencies is a good example of a common dietary myth that is propagated by these groups.
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