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There are so many really good, knowlegeable trainers such as:
Patricia McConnell, Karen Pryor, Victoria Stillwell, Sue Sternberg, Jean Donaldson, Brenda Aloff and Ian Dunbar.
These are all reputable trainers who have a solid understanding of dog behavior. Any one of their books will help you better understand how to help your pup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subject2change
There's not much sadder than watching a dog ask over and over, don't make me bite you... and then the person makes her bite him.
Thanks for sharing.
Yes, horrible to watch- heartbreaking to see a dog put into that position. I can't tell you how furious it makes me to watch a dog clearly send signals in the only way they know how and *&*^! human is so set in their "method" that they can't understand either the effect they are having on the dog or what the dog is trying so hard to tell them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina14
The Cesar Milan/Holly video breaks my heart (I've seen it before). The dog is nervous, trying to get away from him and appease him, Cesar struts and postures in a macho way, and touches her, and continues to crowd the poor dog. He's lucky the bite wasn't worse.
I feel sorry for Holly. Can't believe that Milan "didn't see that coming", Holly telegraphed it loud and clear.
Part of being a good trainer means listening to the dog- what is it telling you; dogs are always communicating with us and we with them, but so much gets lost in translation unless the trainer is well-schooled in the nuances of dog behavior. Very few lay people as well as very few trainers are able to read a dog's body language successfully. I am better than most but there are trainers who are far better than I am.
As thoughtful humans we all have a choice about how we want to approach a situation. It boggles my mind that with so very many reputable good trainers out there that people still choose to use force based methods that put the dog into a defensive fearful position.
Sure, force based methods "work" in that they suppress behavior or coerce a dog into a behavior- but is this really how you choose to approach the animal you profess to love?
Rescue dogs are traumatized, grieving, fearful, and often shut down. To use anything other than gentleness, compassion, and kindness with a rescue dog- well, with any dog, but especially rescues- is criminal in my mind, especially when there isn't any need to use other methods.
Yes, dogs respond to body language- it is how they read humans. That said, owner confidence itself won't help separation anxiety. There are very specific behavioral protocols that work- I provided the basics to you in my previous post. Resolving separation anxiety takes time and patience. Sometimes it simply can't be resolved and the owner must make a choice about the dog's quality of life- is it kind to keep a dog living in a state of constant anxiety.
For anyone interested in a basic primer in body language watch Turid Rugaas' DVD Calming Signals.
OP, one other thing- there are a couple of good groups for separation anxiety and fearful dogs on Yahoo. You will be able to find support and good advice from trainers and other people knowledgeable in these issues there.
I love seeing people cherry pick what videos they choose to disparage Cesar Millan.
How come you had NO COMMENT on any of the ones I posted with the worst possible cases and best possible success?
Are you suggesting that Cesar Millan can work with HUNDREDS OF DOGS over a decade and never get bitten? LOL ok.
And I think you don't have much experience yourself. There is no URGENCY to do that whole disinfectant drama immediately with a dog bite. The NUMBER ONE PRIORITY is to deal with the dog regardless of a bite. Maybe you're confused with a cat bite. Ask your doctor.
So you think they are going to waste valuable AIR TIME showing Cesar washing that bite long after he's finished working with the dog? WHY?
I have had several dogs in my life, and I have been bitten by other people's dogs. And the first thing I have done, when possible, after being bitten, is to apply soap and water to the puncture. In one case, the bite did become infected, and I needed to see a doctor and get antibiotics, despite the fact that it was a small puncture wound, the dog was up to date on his rabies shots, and I was up to date on my tetanus shots. Life-threatening? No. But if I hadn't used soap and water, or hadn't called the doctor when my hand began to swell, maybe a small injury could have become more dangerous.
I have also been bitten by a feral cat I was attempting to help, many years ago; and remember the doctor telling me that the bites could become infected, but the risk of rabies was very low.
Holly was not attempting to bite anyone other than Cesar; she was contained in a fenced area, not running amok and trying to bite other people; so her likelihood of biting others in the next ten minutes was not high (or they would have physically restrained her). They could have had one of Cesar's assistants bring out soap and a wet sponge and he could have used both on the wound while he was talking. I think Milan wanted to appear as if being bitten did not bother him; but for the sake of the millions who watched the show, an example of quick post-bite care would have been helpful. I did not expect him to ask to see Holly's rabies tag on-camera...
"no URGENCY" to apply disinfectant to a dog bite? Maybe not in the first minute after the dog bite, it's usually not practical. But it is prudent, and smart, to apply at least soap and water as soon as possible if one is able; which Milan was (I'm sure that Holly's owners possessed soap and running water and a clean sponge or rag). Pouring water over the puncture isn't enough.
I don't know whether Holly is perfectly rehabilitated or not. We don't see her life behind the camera. Living with Milan as her apparent owner, of course she might attempt to appease him by licking (which is basically a submissive gesture) him. And while I can appreciate that Milan has taken on difficult dogs and appeared to be successful; he utterly blew it in the time he had with Holly, on-camera, in her owners' yard.
He should give her a home, since a dog with a well documented bite history (thanks to him) is hard to rehome. Dogs love their owners, and he's no exception. That doesn't excuse his behavior in the video. That doesn't say everything he does with every dog is wrong either. But anyone who picks one trainer out and makes them infallible is kidding themselves. People can learn things from CM, and learn what *not* to do as well. Same with pretty much all trainers. They all have something to offer if you listen. Not all of them will give such bad examples of negative training. I hear he's backed off somewhat on the negative stuff in recent years. That had to come from *listening* to others' approaches.
if you do get a 2nd dog you need to be sure it is one she does bond with. I had a non resuce puppy who had seperation anxiety but had another dog who she loved. I would leave both in a tile room when I had to go to work and all was well.
Then the older dog died and back to seperation problems when I had to go out. I had thought of another dog and did mind dogs for others. She never did bond to them so that was that. I did retire so was with her lots and she lived to age 14 but was glued to me. I also had to crate her when gone for her safety and the house.
I'm not vilifying Cesar Milan at all. It's evident he has a great heart for dogs and dog owners, he has done a ton for animal rescue, and a lot of the thing he pushes are great advice dog owners need to hear (exercise your dog, be calm but firm, treat the dog like a dog not a baby, etc.). However, his dominance pack structure thing is not supported by actual behavioral science, nor the behavior of canines in the wild, feral, or domestic environments. Also, I think the pressure to make a neat little story for episodic TV leads to the use of quick fix techniques that shut the dog down rather than addressing underlying problems that lead to the undesirable behaviors.
I think it is possible to take a number of good ideas from his show and publications, but I think it's also important to realize that he is selling a product, and that in reality training difficult dogs and rehabilitating damaged dogs is more complicated and asks for more subtlety.
Patricia McConnell, Ph.D is a widely respected speaker and is a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist. Cesar Millan is a self taught trainer with a TV show. It is sad that so many follow the celebrity as opposed to the science of behavior.
So many good suggestions & comments here. OP , I hope you will update this thread once you've had a chance to try a few. I do agree that there are probably good points to take from many different sources. I have a shelter dog, not a mill dog, but definitely he has issues. The DAP collar has helped some. Also my dog has had aggression issues before - a behavioral veterinarian worked with me & among the lengthy discussion after was a suggestion that has REALLY helped to calm him: Lavender oil. I buy the pure stuff - not "essence of" or any cheap derivative. Also, I got nice & comfy down by his crate. I hung out during chill-out time, watching TV, etc. The crate door was open, I gave Moose a nice treat for getting in, & then I just let him know neither one of us was going anywhere til I said so. Now he actually prefers his crate & I don't even close it. I put a throw over the top and sides - he has a great view out the front but feels safe in his "den".
The shelter I volunteer with has several trainers & even a few doggie boot camps that they will send hard-to-adopt dogs to. Hope you can contact a few in your area. The ones I'm familiar with will do anything they can to help an adopter succeed. You've been down the rescue road before, so you have probably heard this, but rescues imo are so intuitive.. they know the chance you've given them. They just want another chance to prove they're worthy. I know...a little out there...but I see it a lot.
The OP wrote this on October 29th, and hasn't been back since.
I'd like to know if the OP has read this thread and taken some of the advice that was given. I hope that she doesn't give up on this dog...that's the absolute last thing that dog needs right now.
HERE'S the FOLLOW UP to that PARTIAL video you posted. It's no secret that she is PERFECTLY rehabilitated and happy now - LIVING WITH CESAR'S PACK. (at the time of the follow up video).
HAHAHA Patricia McConnell. Show me ONE VIDEO of ANY dangerous dog, any SEVERE red zone case. Big whoop she shows owners how to walk a dog.
You can't. She isn't anywhere NEAR Cesar Millan's league. HE'S the one who saves red zone dangerous dogs who would otherwise be euthanized or turned back into rescue.
It is hilarious that you mock someone with a Ph.D. in Zoology who is a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist and who conducts seminars (often on dog aggression) throughout the world attended by professional dog trainers and behaviorists only to defend an untrained pseudocelebrity with a tv show.
As someone who "hangs" dogs I do not feel Cesar Millans methods are appropriate for working with puppy mill dogs. He may have done some shows on it to promote his brand but a Petsmart trainer could have done about the same. He is selling himself and his brand.
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