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Hello, everyone. I could really use your suggestions. For any of you who feel that this needs to include condemnation (there are only a couple of posters I'm referring to here), please just keep your thoughts to yourself. I'm simply not up to being judged at the moment.
Okay, so some of you are aware that I rescued a little 3-year-old male Keeshond-Pomeranian mix from a "foster home of sorts" in Los Angeles a month ago. A couple of weeks ago, I had Friederik in to see our vet for his initial checkup. (He charmed the socks right off her; As his proud mom, I just had to mention that. ) Anyway, I had had to put my 22-year old female tuxedo cat to sleep about seven weeks ago, and she knew how much I loved that cat. As she was finishing up with Friederik, she asked if I was ready for a new cat, and I told her I was. She told me that one of their receptionists had recently rescued a cat and was looking for a new home for her, as she was already caring for six other cats.
This cat (Allie) was a beautiful six-year-old spayed female, with long, soft black and white hair (definitely not a tuxedo cat, though, as the markings are very random and much more equally divided between the colors than a tuxedo would be). The cat had been brought in to the vet to be put down because her owner was sick of her peeing outside her litter box and just sick of her in general. He didn't even care about being with her when she was euthanized since he "felt no connection to her." To make a long story short, one of the vets and one of the receptionists interceded and asked the man if he'd give them permission to place her in another home. He agreed to do so, and in the course of their discussion, the vet and receptionist learned that there was also a large dog in the household. The vet did a urinalysis and it turned out that Allie had blood and crystals in her urine, which was probably why she wasn't using her litter box. The problem was treated and resolved, although she'll have to be on a special diet in the future. She is once again using her box. She was also badly matted, so the receptionist who took her shaved off the clumps, leaving the unmatted fur alone.
I took this cat home last Friday evening. The plan was to keep her in my office with me, behind a closed door for a few days, or maybe even a week. She had her bed, food, water and litter box in there, and that's where I spend several hours a day. We're still crating Friederik at night, so we decided that we'd leave my office door open at at night, allowing Allie to explore the house, maybe leaving her scent here and there so that Friederik might start getting used to it. Then, we'd put her back in my office with the door closed during the day, when Friederik was out and about. I thought I'd made an excellent decision.
Here's what happened... We went to bed. Frederik was in his crate near the foot of our bed, asleep. Almost immediately, Allie found her way into our bedroom. She spotted Friederik, panicked, jumped onto our bed, ran across it the back of our pillows and onto the floor on the other side. I figured she probably ran out of the room. I knew I'd have to go hunting for her the next morning, which I did. I looked all over the house, figuring that she'd have found herself a really good hiding place. As it ended up, she'd never gone out of the room. Instead, she was hiding under our bed (which is too low for Friederik to get under, but not too low for him to look under).
Since then, we have put up a baby gate between my office and the hall. She can jump over it (and has done so), but Friederik is too small. He can't even jump onto our bed (which I consider to be a good thing). Most of the time, she stays in my office. When he has jumped over the gate and gone in to our bedroom, I've followed her and made sure Friederik stays out.
He is very, very, very interested in her, though, and she's at least a little curious about him (probably since she grew up with a dog). As I've mentioned before (in other threads), Friederik does not do at all well on a leash. When he was at my sister's house for three days, he got along well with her three dogs and two cats, although she said that one of the cats did have to remind him once of who was boss. When we got him, we were told that he was good with his foster family's cats. I'm just concerned because of his exuberance (and that's understating the situation). We've been trying to distract him with treats, as he is very responsive to them, and have been punishing his barking at her through the baby gate by shooting a stream of water at him. It's got to the point where we just have to point the spray bottle at him and he backs off. Still, he stands at the baby gate staring at her and then crouches and kind of pounces like a dog does when he wants to play. That's all I think he really wants -- just to play, but I can't be sure, and I don't want to put Allie's safety at risk, nor to I want her to feel as if she has to run for her life whenever she sees Friederik, even if he did just want to play. I think that would only encourage bad behavior in him.
When I took Allie, it was with the understanding that if things didn't work out, I could return her to the receptionist at the vet. That's comforting to know, but I want more than anything for this to work out. Any non-judgmental suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
What is typically done is one animal, usually the newcomer, is kept to one room, with a shut door. Food, drink, litter box is all kept to that room. For a few days to a week the only interactions the animals have is smelling each other through the door. This allows the animals to become used to each other's smell, and lowers the excitement level (and potential over interest).
After the are no longer showing interest through the door. You can put up a gate. With the newcomer on one side. It is best if the animals cannot get over the gate at this time. A few more days go by, until there is no visible excitement coming from the dog at the presence of the cat on the other side of the gate. Only then are the two allowed to interact without a barrier and even then only when supervised.
So just go back to your original plan. Keep the cat in your office, even at night, and in a few days open the door, put up the gate (maybe two to keep the cat inside), and just leave Frederick be. Unfortunately punishing him for barking at the cat, is making him associate the cat with punishment rather than with his behavior. Instead treats whenever the cat is near the gate, and if he becomes obsessive about looking at the cat, move him to another part of the house. In a few days the cat should be much less interesting.
What is typically done is one animal, usually the newcomer, is kept to one room, with a shut door. Food, drink, litter box is all kept to that room. For a few days to a week the only interactions the animals have is smelling each other through the door. This allows the animals to become used to each other's smell, and lowers the excitement level (and potential over interest).
After the are no longer showing interest through the door. You can put up a gate. With the newcomer on one side. It is best if the animals cannot get over the gate at this time. A few more days go by, until there is no visible excitement coming from the dog at the presence of the cat on the other side of the gate. Only then are the two allowed to interact without a barrier and even then only when supervised.
So just go back to your original plan. Keep the cat in your office, even at night, and in a few days open the door, put up the gate (maybe two to keep the cat inside), and just leave Frederick be. Unfortunately punishing him for barking at the cat, is making him associate the cat with punishment rather than with his behavior. Instead treats whenever the cat is near the gate, and if he becomes obsessive about looking at the cat, move him to another part of the house. In a few days the cat should be much less interesting.
Thanks, ikb. I appreciate your help. My only concern is that we obviously jumped to step two (a gate) before we should have, and I'm not sure that going back to step one (a closed door) would accomplish much now. Friederick and Allie are very much aware of each other, so I'm kind of thinking that what's done is done. I just don't want to compound the problem at this point. Also, my first post was kind of misleading -- not because that was my intention but but to try to make an already long post a little bit shorter. We actually had planned on keeping Allie behind a closed door for a few days, and left her behind one (in my office, which is right next door to our bedroom) when we went to bed the first night. At around 6:00 A.M. the next morning, I woke up to her meowing, and since I didn't want to get up at that time and go spend time with her in my office, that's when I let her out to go exploring. It was my intention to find her when we got up at around 8:00, and to put her back in my office with the door closed before even letting Friederik out of his crate. It's just that things didn't work out the way I'd planned and they saw each other for the first time before I intended it to happen. At this point, I feel like it would just frustrate Friederik to no end to know that there's a cat behind that closed door, and it would frustrate Allie to be confined to a room she couldn't even see out of. I'm afraid that the build-up of frustration could lead to anxiety and to a worse outcome. Other than that, I think you're probably right on. We probably need to focus more on distracting his obsession with Allie more than anything else.
Katz, I'm not sure what you want to correct in the situation. Is it Friederik's barking that is the problem? It sounds to me like you are doing what can be done on that front. You have blocked out space for Allie, where Allie is safe. And you are working on Friederik's barking.
I have, in the past, done more intensive dog/cat meet and greet situations. Where someone held the cat in their lap, while another person kept the dog under control but let the dog approach so everybody could see, and learn (mostly the dog), that the wasn't going to be any chasing allowed - and vice versa no harassment. I am not sure I would do that today. I do know I haven't bothered with anything like that in a long time. And, we always have both cats and dogs.
Most cats, even those who have a "fraidy-cat" run-away response to the presence of a dog, will eventually get used to the dog when it is a daily thing. They may never be play-buddies, but hey, whatever, eh? I think you are right to be concerned about the prey/pursuit response from Friederik if/when Allie runs away. Happens all the time. The big question is, how far does that response go? The next step after <chase> is <grab-bite>, and after that <kill-bite> where the dog actually performs actions that might hurt the cat. I think most dogs don't know what to do at all once they get past chase and grab, but it can turn out badly if it gets to that point. On the other hand, Friederik is small enough Allie might just teach him a lesson when he gets too close! Which also might turn out badly, if Friederik gets angry instead of backing off.
Personally, I think my first response would be to let them work it out. Just continue what you are doing. Keep the gates up so Allie can have safe space. Keep encouraging Friederik not to bark. He will eventually get bored with nothing happening. Also giving him plenty of mental stimulation (daily) in some other way will help him forget that Allie is an unrequited "treat". So, 20-30 minute training sessions - little agility stuff - whatever. I use stools in the living room and chairs in the dining room sometimes - "up on" - "go under" - "over" - stuff like that.
Keeshond and Poms are both barky dogs - "alerting" is in their blood. Keeshond may also have some vermin-hunting instincts. You need to watch closely and see where you think Friederik's instincts are. Supposedly they also have guarding instinct - so if you can get Friederik to consider Allie as a family member to guard - rather than as vermin to hunt - you may have a much better situation.
Even though we have both cats and dogs, I can't say I'm an expert at interspecies relationships. If a dog showed cat aggression, we didn't adopt them. Our current two are herding dogs - and while they did not show cat aggression at the adoption center - they do have a VERY strong tendency to try and herd our cat (we currently only have one). Which sometimes means they chase her vigorously. However, she knows she can hide and escape. And she has taught the dogs not to get too close to her claws. Our cat may run away, and she is wary when the dogs are around, but they manage. The only thing we do is express extreme displeasure when chasing and herding get excessive. And try to prevent situations where it might be likely. For instance, we don't put them in the back yard at the same time. Because once the cat moves in the back yard, she will probably get chased over the fence. Not a problem here, for us, or for the cat. We've had these two for two years, and they have gotten better about not chasing, but it still happens.
Not sure how much help any of that might be. FWIW!
Edit: while I wrote this, lkb0714 was responding. Lkb0714 offers some specific suggestions that sound to me like a good plan. I left what I wrote as is anyway, JIC it might add something to the conversation. But it sounds to me like lkb0714 has a handle on this type of situation.
Katz, I'm not sure what you want to correct in the situation. Is it Friederik's barking that is the problem? It sounds to me like you are doing what can be done on that front. You have blocked out space for Allie, where Allie is safe. And you are working on Friederik's barking.
It's not his barking per se, as it really hasn't gotten out of hand. I'm just seeing the barking as possibly being frightening to Allie. I don't want to give her any additional reasons to fear Friederik. He's not really all that much of a barker in comparison to some dogs I've had.
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I have, in the past, done more intensive dog/cat meet and greet situations. Where someone held the cat in their lap, while another person kept the dog under control but let the dog approach so everybody could see, and learn (mostly the dog), that the wasn't going to be any chasing allowed - and vice versa no harassment. I am not sure I would do that today. I do know I haven't bothered with anything like that in a long time. And, we always have both cats and dogs.
I have thought of that approach. My main concern is that Allie might be able to break loose of my hold, scratch or bite me, and then make a mad dash to get out of the room and lose whatever trust she has in me to protect her. I'm sure you don't need to be told that a cat wanting to get out of someone's grasp can be pretty darned strong.
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Most cats, even those who have a "fraidy-cat" run-away response to the presence of a dog, will eventually get used to the dog when it is a daily thing. They may never be play-buddies, but hey, whatever, eh? I think you are right to be concerned about the prey/pursuit response from Friederik if/when Allie runs away. Happens all the time. The big question is, how far does that response go? The next step after <chase> is <grab-bite>, and after that <kill-bite> where the dog actually performs actions that might hurt the cat. I think most dogs don't know what to do at all once they get past chase and grab, but it can turn out badly if it gets to that point. On the other hand, Friederik is small enough Allie might just teach him a lesson when he gets too close! Which also might turn out badly, if Friederik gets angry instead of backing off.
This is actually quite encouraging to me.
I have had cats and dogs together pretty much continually for pretty much 35 years now. I think I'd probably be a whole lot more nonchalant about my present situation if it were not for one really bad past experience we had. We already had a cat and one dog, a Collie by the name of Jasmine. They got along fine together, but I could tell that the dog wanted some canine companionship. We adopted a little dog from Best Friends, having been told that she was "cat-friendly." We struggled for a year to change her behavior, but she was absolutely determined that she was going to kill the cat. She would actually lunge at the cat while the cat was on my lap. We even installed shelves at various heights all around my office so that the cat could spend her time high above the dog's reach and feel safe at all times. The dog was as sweet as could be otherwise, but after a year, we simply had to find her a new cat-free home.
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Personally, I think my first response would be to let them work it out. Just continue what you are doing. Keep the gates up so Allie can have safe space. Keep encouraging Friederik not to bark. He will eventually get bored with nothing happening.
I appreciate the suggestion. I was just talking to a woman on the phone who is the Executive Director of the National Sheltie Rescue (she lives just about a mile from me). When I explained to her what was going on, she seemed to think that, if given the opportunity, Friederik and Allie would probably work things out between the two of them, as long as my husband and I were both right there to make sure nothing got out of hand. Friederik's only about 25 pounds, and Allie is 9 pounds, so she's a decent sized cat. And I did observe her hissing at him once when he was about four feet away but on a leash when she could have just bolted instead. So that was encouraging.
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Even though we have both cats and dogs, I can't say I'm an expert at interspecies relationships. If a dog showed cat aggression, we didn't adopt them. Our current two are herding dogs - and while they did not show cat aggression at the adoption center - they do have a VERY strong tendency to try and herd our cat (we currently only have one). Which sometimes means they chase her vigorously. However, she knows she can hide and escape. And she has taught the dogs not to get too close to her claws. Our cat may run away, and she is wary when the dogs are around, but they manage. The only thing we do is express extreme displeasure when chasing and herding get excessive. And try to prevent situations where it might be likely. For instance, we don't put them in the back yard at the same time. Because once the cat moves in the back yard, she will probably get chased over the fence. Not a problem here, for us, or for the cat. We've had these two for two years, and they have gotten better about not chasing, but it still happens.
Jasmine (our Collie) loved to herd our cat. She never really chased her; she just walked by her side and made sure she (the cat) went where she (Jasmine) wanted her to. We used to laugh about it, because sometimes I got the feeling that the cat was thinking, "Puh-leeeaase! I can find my own way down the hall into the kitchen, for hell sakes!"
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Not sure how much help any of that might be. FWIW!
It was a lot of help, actually -- especially your comments about maybe getting Friederik to start looking at Annie as someone in the family that he needs to protect, and not as vermin to be persued. Now if I could get any suggestions on how to do that, I'd be thrilled!
I know I tend to be impatient when I want something to happen. I'm really working on that.
With a little stream of water? Why not? It's not strong enough to do anything but startle him.
I agree with the other poster he could draw a connection between the cat and getting sprayed. Also, I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement every single time that can be chosen (which is all of the time if one chooses for it to be). The object is never to stop a behavior, it's to ask for a different one.
You want him to ignore the cat. Re-direct his attention anytime his reaction to/behavior towards the cat is not what you want.
Are you keeping a pouch of training treats on you? So that everytime you want a different behavior you can ask for it? Take the opportunity to do a quick set of training to sit or stay or whatever.
Some people like the term 'leave it'. The word doesn't matter, it's what you want in response to the word. Since that term is popular I will use that. Bothering the cat causes you to say 'leave it' and then re-direct to something else.
Whatever word you choose, the command that means 'leave it' is helpful all of the time. Yappy little dog? Leave it. Getting into something he shouldn't? Leave it. On and on.
But the re-direct has to be to something that will engage him. So he learns that 'leave it' means he goes on to something else that is fun, or a training exercise (even if it's very short) that results in treats or praise or both. Something rewarding.
I am not one who will use negative reinforcement willy-nilly, but there are times and spaces and reasons why and where positive does not work. I think this situation is hitting two of those, and here is why - and I am also going to include some quotes from a book I just happened to be reading, and hit a pertinent section!
It sounds like (I'm not sure, as I'm not there to watch) that Friederik is tapping instinct-level interest. On top of that he is outside his boundary of self-control due to excitement. That would make his behavior towards Allie very attractive to him. This would also mean that there is a good chance he will not respond to anything positive at that moment. A negative like a water spray can get his focus back at that moment when a positive can't. If a dog is very young (4-8 months) a single negative can be an extreme learning experience. Outside that age range (the prime learning months), and given such a mild negative like a water spray, it is not likely to have such a radical effect (like making the dog hate the cat because of the water). I think it would be downright unusual, although not impossible.
But talk about the ironies of life: I've been reading a training book focused on herding dogs, looking for ideas. And this morning I read the section that I will quote from, and you know what? This is applicable to all dogs, and is pertinent to Friederick and Allie! I'm typing this, so please forgive any typos - they will be my error.
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Management Techniques
Respect the bubble
Preventing your dog from losing self-control can be easily accomplished by protecting your dog's personal space.
Your dog's personal space is the amount of space he needs between him and something exciting or threatening,
to remain calm and under your control. Dogs, people, . . ., small animals, (sic etc.) are just a few things that might overly excite your dog if he gets too close to them. An easy way to visualize your dog's personal space is to imagine him moving through his environment encased in a bubble. If his bubble is intact, he can ignore distractions, listen to you, and respond to your cues. However, if his bubble is popped because the distraction gets too close, your dog will stop responding to your cues and start to lose self-control. His instincts will begin to take over and his learned behavior will deteriorate. . . .
The size of your dog's bubble may vary, depending on the type of distraction involved, . . .By teaching your dog to pay attention to you even when you are near distractions, you can eventually make all of his bubbles very small, meaning he will learn to exhibit self-control even when he is very close to distractions. . . .
decide what you need to do to protect your dog's bubble, and actually start doing it -- all before (emphasis is mine, H) your dog's . . . bubble is burst and he starts going bonkers . . .
You know Friederik is inside his bubble when he sees Allie! You've got the loss of self-control! So you are ahead of the game. Now you need to figure out where that boundary is - it may be outside your house - like a block or more away - so finding the edge of self-control inside the house may not be possible, but I think it will be! It is outside the bubble where positive reinforcement will still work and should be used.
Now - credit where credit is due - the book excerpt is from Teach Your Herding Breed to be a Great Companion Dog - From Obsessive to Outstanding, author Dawn Antoniak-Mitchell, Dogwise Publishing.
One last note. My dogs "alert" to things - performing their guarding instinct. I do find it easier to distract them - or re-focus them - if I give them a response to let them know I have heard them, and I will come look at whatever they are alerting on if I need to. And sometimes I do, and say "oh, that is just a . . ." or "nothing there", or, if a person is actually inside our "space" - I give them a "very good", and let them know their job is done. It seems to me to help them "stand down". Friederik might be helped by knowing you are aware of his "alert" - IF that is part of what he is doing.
Last edited by hiero2; 09-26-2017 at 07:33 AM..
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) Anyway, I had had to put my 22-year old female tuxedo cat to sleep about seven weeks ago, and she knew how much I loved that cat. As she was finishing up with Friederik, she asked if I was ready for a new cat, and I told her I was. She told me that one of their receptionists had recently rescued a cat and was looking for a new home for her, as she was already caring for six other cats.
