Considering adopting a senior Blue Heeler - need advice? (housebreak, aggressive, skin)
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Thanks for the advice, but there is no medical reason to neuter my dog, or at least not enough of a reason (and my vet concurred last time I asked him); if I did, it would be harder to keep him in good weight. He's not exactly running around contributing to the population of unwanted puppies. Have you personally seen/known a dog neutered in his senior years decrease or stop marking territory outside (or anywhere) - just curious.
My experience is that at that age the dog will continue to mark, neutered or not. We had a senior citizen foster that was recently fixed and he marked everything he could outside. Including a guy standing at the beach (the dog didn't see well, was my excuse.)
So I don't know that I'd expose him to the risks of neutering at that old age, though the possibility of cancer and prostate problems are there and merit consideration.
I've known one blue heeler in my life and a second dog that is probably half heeler, both are "normal" dogs. Neither barks much, one is quiet. Both are friendly with people. One was a bit toy possessive. Both had normal energy levels, maybe a bit higher than a Labrador retriever but less than a German Shorthair.
I don't think that as a breed, Heelers present red flags in the way that a Malinois, Weimaraner, or Border Collie often do. Its a normal dog from a working background that needs some exercise but that's it.
Ok, mostlly the answers so far have been . . . not good.
Aus cattle dog = blue heeler = red heeler
Are the BITERS? No. Do they NIP and GRAB with their teeth? YES, very much so. Is what I just said true 100% of the time? NO. But mostly it does.
There is a big difference between grabbing with teeth, and biting. Aus cattle dogs tend to be - and are supposed to be - very mouthy. Meaning they use their teeth. But they don't BITE. They use their teeth to control the animals. Sometimes that animal is YOU.
They were bred to move cattle. Cattle aren't sheep. They (cattle) need more mouthiness and aggression to move them than sheep do. So Aus cattle dogs have more mouthiness and aggression than Border collies.
Aus cattle dogs have a wide variety of behavior between individuals, just as other breeds do. So "tendencies" may, or may NOT hold true.
Aus cattle dogs "tend" not to get on with other dogs. But it is an individual thing. Aus cattle dogs tend to be independent, and to act independently. More so than other herding breeds. But it ain't always so. Still, mostly, it TENDS to be so.
I felt sorry for the dog; and the fosterer's description made her sound like she might be a good addition to my one-dog pack. But I'm still wary, since I can't meet the dog before she is transported 2000 miles to my state; and I would hate to put her through that and then have to send her back because my situation isn't right for her. It comes down to my not being sure that the fosterer is being 100% honest with me (no reason not to believe her, but I don't know her and I know nothing about her rescue group either) or that even a low-key Australian Cattle Dog would fit in with my relatively lazy lifestyle, or that my dog would not react to her by marking the walls of my apartment. And I take my dog to dog parks quite often; so I would want a second dog to be able to get along with other dogs. (the only Australian Cattle Dog we see at the parks is a 7-month-old male pup who is quite nice, but he's still young...) I'll think about it for another day or nearly, but I'm leaning against the decision...
I felt sorry for the dog; and the fosterer's description made her sound like she might be a good addition to my one-dog pack. But I'm still wary, since I can't meet the dog before she is transported 2000 miles to my state; and I would hate to put her through that and then have to send her back because my situation isn't right for her. It comes down to my not being sure that the fosterer is being 100% honest with me (no reason not to believe her, but I don't know her and I know nothing about her rescue group either) or that even a low-key Australian Cattle Dog would fit in with my relatively lazy lifestyle, or that my dog would not react to her by marking the walls of my apartment. And I take my dog to dog parks quite often; so I would want a second dog to be able to get along with other dogs. (the only Australian Cattle Dog we see at the parks is a 7-month-old male pup who is quite nice, but he's still young...) I'll think about it for another day or nearly, but I'm leaning against the decision...
I agree that it is too risky to bring this dog in. You also stated in first post that the foster stated she got along with *most* dogs. That means they have noticed there are some she clearly doesn't like. It could be a disastrous situation to bring her into an apartment where she is in close quarters with a dog she doesn't get along with. Other than housebreaking, it doesn't sound like she has had any training. You may have to walk the dogs separately for quite a while until that is worked out. Also 9 is not that old depending on the individual dog. My beagle is 11 and still has a ton of energy. If he had the herding instincts of a cattle dog, he would still be a handful at this age.
Have you considered a much smaller dog that would be less of a threat to your older dog? You mentioned possible health issues. Also, how do you (or your dog) feel about cats? Cats are overpopulated everywhere and are in dire need of homes. I like both dogs and cats equally and they are SO much easier. Even a kitten is easy. They don't need crated, walked, trained, etc. Many have personalities like dogs too. They can be more cuddly and loving than many dogs too. Many even end up taking to a dog very well and being a great playmate.
My experience is that at that age the dog will continue to mark, neutered or not. We had a senior citizen foster that was recently fixed and he marked everything he could outside. Including a guy standing at the beach (the dog didn't see well, was my excuse.)
So I don't know that I'd expose him to the risks of neutering at that old age, though the possibility of cancer and prostate problems are there and merit consideration.
I've known one blue heeler in my life and a second dog that is probably half heeler, both are "normal" dogs. Neither barks much, one is quiet. Both are friendly with people. One was a bit toy possessive. Both had normal energy levels, maybe a bit higher than a Labrador retriever but less than a German Shorthair.
I don't think that as a breed, Heelers present red flags in the way that a Malinois, Weimaraner, or Border Collie often do. Its a normal dog from a working background that needs some exercise but that's it.
I agree with this. Marking is a housetraining issue, NOT a balls issue. You also have to consider this is a puppy mill dog. I am assuming they got the dog from a puppy mill, possibly bought at an auction, and not just that it was born in a puppy mill but has lived in a regular home from 8 weeks. These dogs have not had adequate (any) socialization or appropriate puppy learning and most have pretty serious mental issues. They can be a LOT of work. There are some that adapt pretty quickly but those are the exception, not the rule. They are also generally a high flight risk. Personally, I would not give this dog any consideration at all. I wouldn't bring a new dog in at this point, but if I did, it would be a calm, well-mannered dog with a known history.
I felt sorry for the dog; and the fosterer's description made her sound like she might be a good addition to my one-dog pack. But I'm still wary, since I can't meet the dog before she is transported 2000 miles to my state; and I would hate to put her through that and then have to send her back because my situation isn't right for her. It comes down to my not being sure that the fosterer is being 100% honest with me (no reason not to believe her, but I don't know her and I know nothing about her rescue group either) or that even a low-key Australian Cattle Dog would fit in with my relatively lazy lifestyle, or that my dog would not react to her by marking the walls of my apartment. And I take my dog to dog parks quite often; so I would want a second dog to be able to get along with other dogs. (the only Australian Cattle Dog we see at the parks is a 7-month-old male pup who is quite nice, but he's still young...) I'll think about it for another day or nearly, but I'm leaning against the decision...
A low-key cattle dog could fit in with your current spaniel and the lifestyle you describe for your dogs. The real question, is WILL this cattle dog fit in. You can't meet the dog first, which I don't like. Not at all.
However, you have said the rescue will take the dog back if she doesn't fit. You could adopt and just have a trial period. That's stretching the adoption idea a little bit, but you just can't know how the cattle dog will fit if you don't have a chance to meet her, and she have a chance to meet you and your male spaniel.
Will the rescue org feel comfortable if you adopt her, and the day after she arrives you call them that it isn't working out? I think that is the worst possible scenario. On the other hand, maybe it's not - the worst possible scenario would be the cattle dog and your spaniel take an instant and violent dislike to each other. But with the help of a friend, you can introduce them slowly.
I wish Legion777 were still hanging around, he's been around a lot of cattle dogs when he was growing up.
I've been toying with the idea of getting another dog as a companion to my current dog, an 11-year-old intact male spaniel. I'd prefer an older (spayed) female.
There was a Facebook post in a Facebook group of which I'm a member, about a female Blue Heeler up for adoption, along with a photo of a cute, plump dog. I've been messaging the fosterer of the dog. She (the dog) is 9 years old, spayed, apparently spent most of her life in a puppy mill; has three (presumably) mild medical conditions (some slight hair loss, perhaps due to dry skin, that seems to be improving; plus a slight limp and a facial droop supposedly caused by a case of distemper when the dog was a pup). The fosterer represents the dog as being very friendly to all humans and most dogs, not a high-energy dog or a barker; and somewhat plump due to having insufficient exercise for a long time. She is supposedly housebroken.
I have some concerns, since I Googled Australian Cattle Dogs and Blue Heelers (pretty much the same dog) and various sites said that this was a high-energy, dominant, aggressive, biting breed. I must say that I've met some pet Australian Cattle Dogs over the years, in dog-friendly areas and dog parks, and those dogs were pleasant and calm.
I certainly don't want to bring a dog who is aggressive and a biter into my home. I would want a dog who was not much of a barker, low to medium in energy/activity level.
The rescue organization seems to be a group of people including the fosterer, who pull dogs and puppies from kill shelters, see to their veterinary needs, foster them and adopt them out. The fosterer is located over 2000 miles away, in Texas, and would have the dog transported to me; I think the fee is fairly low ($150) unless there is an additional cost for the dog herself (we haven't discussed those details yet). I asked how I would return the dog to them if it didn't work out, and the fosterer said she has a contact about 90 minutes from where I live who would come and take the dog.
My own dog is friendly to other dogs; but I am not sure how he will react to having another dog share our space. I don't want him to start (and continue to) marking the apartment to show he owns the place. It might be a good experience for him; or he might resent her, or he might tolerate her but not adore her. He will always be first with me; although I have room in my heart for another dog.
I also have a concern in that my dog has a mild heart condition that might be getting slightly worse to the point that he might need medication (up until his last EKG, there were no signs or symptoms; but at the last EKG they thought the heart might be enlarging). He's getting another EKG in about 3 weeks, and they said they might prescribe medication, depending what they find; medication that might cause him to have diarrhea. I am wondering if I should wait until I have the EKG done to make any further decision on pursuing this adoption or even the idea of adoption altogether.
The reason I was drawn to this particular dog, despite her being of a breed I've never owned or had a lot of experience with, is that she is said to have a very good temperament and, being older, not being a high-energy, a dog who could be happy with some short walks every day and living in an apartment.
So am I crazy? Do you think I should go for this, or wait? My original plan was to only adopt a dog from a shelter/rescue that I could meet in person before deciding, or to adopt a dog from a responsible breeder (maybe one I knew) who wanted to place an older female. My concerns are mostly if I should let myself trust the word of this fosterer as far as the dog's temperament, especially since I've seen information online about the Blue Heeler/Australian Cattle Dog breed that made me worry; and if I am getting myself into a difficult situation unnecessarily. I've never owned a Herding breed.
I realize that any rescue/older dog in need of rehoming would come with some baggage. But I can't have a dog that is prone to nipping and is difficult with other dogs. (been there, done that, not again) I live in an apartment building that allows all kinds of dogs; but any dog I have has to be able to sit quietly in an elevator on-leash when there are other people (including children) in it.
On the other hand, this dog sounds like she could be a lovely pet, one that perhaps I shouldn't pass up.
Thoughts?
I have had two dogs that were blue heeler border collie mixes. Heelers, cattle dogs, whatever you want to call them, are long lived breeds, indeed one of the longest lived dogs was reputably a heeler. Nine is not what I would consider an "older dog". My crosses were still running, jumping, frisbee nuts until they were solidly preteens. My limited experience with heeler crosses would make me think a heeler is not an obvious apartment dog at 9 years old.
Additionally, cattle dogs can be stubborn and in need of a dog savvy owner as sometimes their smarts paired with stubborn can become manipulative. That being said, it is entirely like this dog does not have that trait at all.
My biggest concern would be the age difference. A 12 year old spaniel and a 9 year old heeler might be in different life stages. This would be easy to see by meeting the dog.
Edited because I completely missed the part that you have to commit sight unseen. That changes my mind completely, I would suggest passing on this dog. To many variables that cannot be determined without meeting her and most importantly having her meet your dog.
Not being able to have your current dog and the potential adopted heeler meet is a big concern.
Do all heelers (the proper name for this breed is Australian cattledog. Not "blue heeler" not "red heeler") bite people? NO. But if they've never been socialized and taught mouth manners you very well could end up with a dog that does herd and herd hard. It's a control mechanism and the mouth is their tool. Maybe not you (the boss), but everything else including your other dog, visitors, other neighborhood pets, etc. You won't know this.
Are all cattledogs antisocial with other dogs? NO. But a known puppy mill dog with who knows what social manners, even a spayed female at that age could be very "opinionated" about who she tolerates. You can't test this with your other dog. A very big red flag. If it works, great. A neutered dog of the other sex can be a great fit. If it doesn't work it can be a horrible stressor for your current dog and a huge anxiety for you. Because the solution, if there even is one, will take huge amounts of time, patience, training, vigilance, and luck. If you don't have experience managing multiple dogs I wouldn't take the chance. It is no fun living with dogs who fight. Bi@#$%s, even spayed Bi@#$%s can be...well, Bi@#$%s.
If I was seriously considering adopting this dog I would fly there with my current dog and let them meet up. If no one is willing or able to make this happen they should pass. If there are any known quirks with this mature dog pay attention and pay very close attention. Folks eager to get the dog a home tend to downplay the negatives. If you cannot meet the dog in person before deciding, get a neutral cattledog trainer/evaluator go meet the dog and assess how socialized she actually is with other dogs. How good her bite inhibition is, whether she has high or low prey drive, how biddable she is and what potential triggers she has. Don't ask someone who works with that rescue. Find a neutral party. They exist. Search for a cattledog rescue in that area.
An anecdote. Not to scare you needlessly but to warn you. I adopted a beautiful cattledog sight unseen from a breeder who ended up in financial straits and had to rehome all her dogs. Lovely well bred pedigreed neutered male, smart as a whip, athletic, all fine things. Her one comment about his personality was that he "could be a bit of a brat". The understatement of the century. I had a spayed female cattledog who was very socialized. They were close in age, close in activity level. Great fit right? The adopted dog showed up at the airport, I took both of them to a neutral beach, and he just about killed her upon meeting her. OK, a strange situation for him after a long flight, strangers, etc. It was the initial posturing stand off scrap that would end it. No. He continued to bully her in her own home, pick fights for no obvious reason (she didn't challenge him or do anything to trigger his aggression). I could not send the dog back, they could not share the same house, I was distraught. I could not bring myself to treat the new male dog as "pack leader" in order to remove reasons to dominate my other dog and couldn't leave them alone together. Spent the next few months cycling them in and out of crates to keep the peace.
I was completely out of my depth with this monster. He was too smart for me, too smart for anyone, had no manners, no respect, no basic training, didn't recognize anyone as an authority. Once he squeezed out of a partly open car window as we drove down the highway just to get at a dog on the side of the road. Landed on his head but kept on going. My other dog ended up hiding in a spare bedroom most of the time. He finally attacked another neighbor's dog while on leash and then bit the owner. I had him put down, knowing he would never be adopted by anyone else and would just go crazy in a kennel forever. To this day I feel sick with guilt about how stupid I was, how much misery I caused for both dogs, all of it.
Look, your heart is in the right place. Unless you can do this in person and make sure its going to work with your other dog I would pass. Someone local who can do a good match up would be a better fit. If this dog is so adoptable she can find another home. It is kinder and safer for her too. To be rehomed, barely settled, then uprooted, and sent back again is a big deal.
Last edited by Parnassia; 09-26-2018 at 09:06 PM..
Better said, by far, than I managed. But pretty much what was in my head when I was trying to comment. I think Parnassia's anecdote is at an extreme end, but at the same time, more likely from a cattle dog than most other breeds.
They were bred to be active, and bred to manage other animals. They can live without these things, but they are likely to be better if they can do these things. It's not like my mother's cairns, who could kill a rat in 1.5 seconds from instinct alone - but who could could, at the same time, live without that excitement.
My English shepherds are more laid back than a lot of Borders, or Aus Sheps I meet. But I can still see the toll an idle day takes. They just want more to do. And either one will go off on another dog - and I can often not predict when. They may be good with the other dog for 5 minutes, and then they'll just start acting rude. The male tries to be bossy. The female acts hostile. Even after 3 years together, I can't predict which dogs they will be ugly with. Except if they've been ugly with that dog before, they are likely to be so again. Not as bad as Parnassia's example, but still something else. They are exceptional as ES, dog-hostility-wise, but they ARE rescues.
One of the things that concerns me is just what I said about mine not being predictable. Your potential adoptee could be great with the other dogs at the foster. And not great with your spaniel.
Anyway, I think it is a consensus that you would be better off meeting the dog! Let us know what happens!
I appreciate all the posts, and the good advice. Yes, meeting the dog before making the decision to adopt would be wise, especially having my dog meet her too; but I'm not about to drive down from New England to Texas to do so (or fly, because then I wouldn't bring my dog).
I think I'll have to pass. If I do end up getting a companion for my dog, it probably would be best to meet her (and have her meet my dog) before making the final decision, unless I get an older girl from a breeder I know and trust or a trusted friend of a breeder I trust. If this dog lived within a few hours of me, I'd try to go and check her out, but she's too far away. I don't think it's fair to the dog to put her through a drive of at least a few days and then more time here on a trial basis.
And I am perhaps too unfamiliar with herding breeds; and I don't want a high-drive dog of any breed. (my own dog's highest drive is to raid my refrigerator and any other source of food he can smell, but since he only weighs 26 lbs., he can't get to everything)
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