Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Thankfully I’ve not read those posts that proclaim others to be said “losers not worth worrying about”. I think the great majority here really do try to be helpful, and hopefully, honest too.
I wouldn't disagree, but I've participated in too many threads that end up in pointless classist squabbles when the actual topic is lost amid very tired argument about how all those people just make themselves poor, yadda yadda yadda.
If this thread avoids that abyss, there are some interesting things to discuss. But then, there always are until it becomes another diss-the-poor-a-thon.
assets have inflated, most people are homeowners and home prices have double, tripled or even quadrupled in some areas.. some people are taking home equity loans now since cost of borrowing is super low and going even lower. Salaries have climbed in the past few years and household incomes have increased. Unemployment is the lowest it's ever been at 3.6%.
I agree that student loan debt will put people on the edge, but I also think young people's expectations are too high. A lot of people in my generation had student debt, but they had much lower expectations. Nobody I knew expected to buy a house in their 20s or early 30s. They were happy to have a car. We had roommates--not our own places--not until we were making better money, and some people did, in fact live with their parents to save money.
I know many people who worked waiting tables and bartending when they graduated (in the 70s) and there was a recession and no real career-type jobs. I really did not know anyone who was above restaurant and bar jobs, as their liberal arts degrees did not get them any further then they do now.
Some went back to school for an advanced degree. Others traveled the country and worked in seasonal jobs in restaurants and bars--as I did--it was fun. And nobody felt like they were 'broke', desperate or wanting for anything. We all ended up buying homes and working career positions later on.
Yes, the COL was lower, but wages were also pretty low. People simply were not as materialistic and did not expect or want as much as they do now. I do know people who had relatively the same student debt, so they did not live luxuriously and most had beat up used cars and rented.
Expectations and materialism are pretty high these days, and for some reason, many younger people think they need to buy homes. Lower expectations, stop needing the newest and best electronics or cars, and pay off the student debts as early as possible--things might work out. There is also the concept of 'sacrifice' now for a better future, but let's not go overboard.
Way to stay on point!
But if you don't care for the earlier example... come up with one that suits your perspective.
It’s exactly the point. Why bother comparing to a standard that doesn’t exist and never has? In other words, this mythical utopia where people didn’t need to work to support themselves.
Of course people have to keep working who haven’t achieved financial independence.
And the thing is, people will simply inflate their life style upwards with lifestyle creep as they make more money. People who make 150k probably can’t take a year off or 3 months either.
I agree that student loan debt will put people on the edge, but I also think young people's expectations are too high. A lot of people in my generation had student debt, but they had much lower expectations. Nobody I knew expected to buy a house in their 20s or early 30s. They were happy to have a car. We had roommates--not our own places--not until we were making better money, and some people did, in fact live with their parents to save money.
I know many people who worked waiting tables and bartending when they graduated (in the 70s) and there was a recession and no real career-type jobs. I really did not know anyone who was above restaurant and bar jobs, as their liberal arts degrees did not get them any further then they do now.
Some went back to school for an advanced degree. Others traveled the country and worked in seasonal jobs in restaurants and bars--as I did--it was fun. And nobody felt like they were 'broke', desperate or wanting for anything. We all ended up buying homes and working career positions later on.
Yes, the COL was lower, but wages were also pretty low. People simply were not as materialistic and did not expect or want as much as they do now. I do know people who had relatively the same student debt, so they did not live luxuriously and most had beat up used cars and rented.
Expectations and materialism are pretty high these days, and for some reason, many younger people think they need to buy homes. Lower expectations, stop needing the newest and best electronics or cars, and pay off the student debts as early as possible--things might work out. There is also the concept of 'sacrifice' now for a better future, but let's not go overboard.
I bought a house...and it’s went up in value by about 1.5 to 2 times the value of my student loans. Paying down student loans would have set me behind further in life. And by waiting to get into the housing market the prices just rise upwards and push housing further out of sight.
The example that OP posted means those people must spend minimally, if after all expenses, they have so little left over.
There are plenty of people who are financially comfortable. I live in a high COL and I knew an engineer who got laid off, wife was a stay at home mom. They bought their house in the late '90s when houses were much cheaper (obviously). He crunched the numbers and found out he didn't have to work for an entire year because they had so much money saved up to pay all their bills every month, including continuing to pay for private school tuition for 3 children. Lucky people.
It's not just this guy I know. High earners in their 40s and 50s today who bought their houses decades ago would have a low mortgage and plenty of money left over even after all bills were paid...assuming they live a modest lifestyle.
I didn't mean just this thread, but pretty much every thread about why we have any kind of underclass at all. Just wait; the worthy argument will appear if this thread continues very long.
And 'disdainful' is a polite expression of what I think of those who can sit on their little pile of luck and accumulation and insulation from reality and proclaim that anyone not doing as well is just a loser not worth being concerned about. I can PM you the real words if you like.
I’m actually curious what you actually expect
I was poor. I’ve been homeless. In fact, I’ve lived in some of the poorest areas this country has to offer. I’ve been to subsidized house facilities. I’ve seen the abuse first hand. I’ve seen the drugs. The mindset. The laziness.
How do you propose we make those people have a fair and awesome outcome where they are productive? Do they even want to do anything at all? See I’ve actually been in the real world, where people hate education. They hate working harder “for the man”. They would think nothing of doing drugs or simply stop showing up to a job. How do you help someone like that when they don’t care to help themselves?
My biggest expense today in my budget is taxes. It’s actually more than 2 and 3 line items combined. Think about how idiotic that is. I’ve also done dozens of different charities and things like big brothers big sisters. Why more should someone like me be expected to do in your eyes? What do I need to do to “make it right”?
So I am having a hard time understanding/processing all of the information we read out there relating to salaries, house prices, student loan debt, food costs, transportation, etc. Is almost everyone living on a financial edge? If you simply take the median household income of $61k, how are people paying for housing wherein the median price in the U.S. is around $300k? Hell, even if that median household income was $80k its still not enough!
After you had your mortgage, and some basic living expenses like food and gas for your car there is not much left over. How are you then paying student load debt, spending on other consumer products (e.g., consumer spending is at all-time highs), paying your car note (the car debt is at an all time high as well - over a trillion dollars), where the average car transaction sale is around $30k per KBB. Ohh and dont forget to save for retirement as well.
Curious to hear what other people think. I know the numbers above are not perfect, however, I would say they are accurate enough for this discussion.
Beats me. Trying not to pull the old holier-than-thou, Schadenfreude thing by discussing where I am at 52...suffice to say, comfy enough at arbitrary "Upper Middle Class" and living alone with ZERO boat anchors stopping me from padding the retirement and portfolio.
My burn in cash is $6.5K/month, all-in, on-average. Income (net) is about $12K/mon. So yeah, hey lucky me, though worked for it God knows after a lot of defeat (two steps forward, one back, across the career arc). Many do better than me, many worse, whoopdie do.
My car notes are about $1.5K/month, mortgage $2.9K, insurance about $200, cable and all that $130, food maybe a thou, paying off a thou in random CC charges too. It works. Note is down to about $180K after about seven years of a fifteen year fixed. I could have more cash flow, but "why" I always figured. So I own the vast bulk of a multi million dollar appreciating asset, a home in a hot area that will ALWAYS be hot.
Pal of mine makes about $65K, and she lives in a trailer by-choice (a tiny home, that is nice, that she built after being provided a frame). She lives frugally enough with her last two boys, living okay but not large and a few bucks to play with. She's an expert mom, I'm impressed. It's not hand to mouth, she has a couple thou in the bank (we're good pals, I know this 'cause she tells me) and doesn't live beyond her means, as in "ever."
How do you propose we make those people have a fair and awesome outcome where they are productive? Do they even want to do anything at all?
You utterly missed the point, which in some ways was my point.
When your question actually has something to do with the topic, instead of being shoehorned in because some faction wants to turn every personal-economics thread into a bash/pity/diss the poor thread, I will be happy to take it up. I have, in threads where it was relevant. It's that it becomes a major and pointless center of dissension no matter what vaguely related question the OP poses.
You utterly missed the point, which in some ways was my point.
When your question actually has something to do with the topic, instead of being shoehorned in because some faction wants to turn every personal-economics thread into a bash/pity/diss the poor thread, I will be happy to take it up. I have, in threads where it was relevant. It's that it becomes a major and pointless center of dissension no matter what vaguely related question the OP poses.
Until next time.
You can’t actually answer the question because all of your proposals are fantasy.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
