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Old 07-04-2008, 07:24 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,201,326 times
Reputation: 10185

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Quote:
Originally Posted by joee View Post
Unions used to be a good thing in worker protection, nowadays unions are a joke, i used to be a union man but have no use for them anymore, most companies have the unions in there back pocket.

Unions negotiate higher wages, better benefits, in return the union dues go up, union man has a grevance, the union simply tells the worker well there isn't much we can do about that the company can do that so we won't really push the issue.

Higher wages mean consumer goods raise in price, who pays it the union worker and all of us, benefit premiums are going thru the roof, more workers having to pay more total out of pocket, were did the raise go hmmmm.

Sorry you were in a bad union Joee but unions go bad when the members are apathetic. There IS a democratic process in place and union officers are often voted out, I saw that happen alot in the union I was in.

Unions, like any other economic player, have the duty to look after their own interests. You don't forego a raise in pay just because someone else has to pay the price, indeed, getting someone else to pay the price is the basic reason for economic activity. When bosses get raises they don't wring their hands that their raise is causing inflation but they like it if you feel that way about a raise for you.

As a union member I made almost double what non-union people doing the same work made PLUS a got many benefits unknown to them such as a union controlled pension that allowed me to retire at 55 with a benefit equal to working 40 hours a week. My dues were 3.5% plus $30 a month. The dues were a bargain, do the math.

Because I was a unionist I had power at work and was treated with respect because I could DEMAND it, not because someone deigned to grant it. I had a house, drove new cars, put my kids in Marshall Fields clothes and sent my them to the U of Illinois paying every nickel myself. I retired at 55 with plenty of dough. If you can convinve me those things are bad for me we'll call you Socrates.
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Old 07-04-2008, 07:27 PM
 
48,509 posts, read 86,088,090 times
Reputation: 18105
In a economy like tehis a strike is crazy;all it does is hurt the industry you are in.Unions have always been about their workers making more than toher workers really.Many times in the past they were a monopoly in any trade and then often the leadership was so corrupt. They are really starting to get outmoded in mordern society.
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Old 07-04-2008, 08:01 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,201,326 times
Reputation: 10185
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
In a economy like tehis a strike is crazy;all it does is hurt the industry you are in.Unions have always been about their workers making more than toher workers really.Many times in the past they were a monopoly in any trade and then often the leadership was so corrupt. They are really starting to get outmoded in mordern society.
Well of course unions are about making more, seems like a good idea to me, but not just more than other workers, industrial unions are all about getting as many organized as possible.

The days when trade unions monopolized work while refusing to let the membership grow are long gone, now the trades are much more open, especially to non union tradesmen. The trade I was in sought out young non union tradesmen and brought them into the apprenticeship.

Unions will never be outmoded as long as there are employers who exploit workers and seeing as I don't expect human nature to change I figure there will always be such employers. The thread linked is informative.

//www.city-data.com/forum/work-...-bathroom.html

Strikes are a bad idea given the state of the economy, the state of American labor law and the Republican staffed and run NLRB. Better to play defense for the time being. Things have to get worse before they get better.
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Old 07-04-2008, 09:08 PM
 
9,638 posts, read 24,361,275 times
Reputation: 5304
The 5 day work week? Thank the unions. 8 hour workday? Thank the unions. Child labor laws? Thank the unions. Worker safety laws? Thank the unions.Higher wages for everyone, including non union workers? Thank the unions.
Sure, there are corrupt unions and company unions, but would we be better off without them? I don't think so.
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Old 07-04-2008, 09:46 PM
 
955 posts, read 1,983,986 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post

Employers have been abusing workers for ages and will continue to do so unless stopped by unions or government. We need unions more than ever now to organize the jobs that can't leave the country, baristas at Starbucks for instance. I think those people should be making $25 an hour.
Twenty five bucks an hour for baristas? Where do I sign up? I hate to annoy anyone with a reality check, but here goes:
  • Assume a barista now makes $10 / hour.
  • $25 / hour is a 250% increase.
  • Let's say that the direct labor costs at Starbucks are 40%. The remaining is material and overhead (rent, insurance, marketing, etc.)
  • A 250% increase on the direct labor content results in a required price increase of 2.5*.4=1.0 or a 100% increase in the retail price at Starbucks to support your proposal.
  • This means a $3 cup of coffee now must be priced at $6.
  • I'll bet that you would also want to increase the health care (overhead) portion of the cost side too. That would require an even greater increase of your cup of coffee.
  • Result? People go to McD to buy coffee and baristas at Starbucks are unemployed.
  • Come to think of it, that is what is happening.
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,933 posts, read 6,966,693 times
Reputation: 5506
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpperPeninsulaRon View Post
Twenty five bucks an hour for baristas? Where do I sign up? I hate to annoy anyone with a reality check, but here goes:
  • Assume a barista now makes $10 / hour.
  • $25 / hour is a 250% increase.
  • Let's say that the direct labor costs at Starbucks are 40%. The remaining is material and overhead (rent, insurance, marketing, etc.)
  • A 250% increase on the direct labor content results in a required price increase of 2.5*.4=1.0 or a 100% increase in the retail price at Starbucks to support your proposal.
  • This means a $3 cup of coffee now must be priced at $6.
  • I'll bet that you would also want to increase the health care (overhead) portion of the cost side too. That would require an even greater increase of your cup of coffee.
  • Result? People go to McD to buy coffee and baristas at Starbucks are unemployed.
  • Come to think of it, that is what is happening.
God it's good to here from a supply sider. I swear half the people who post here have little to no understanding of economics, how the federal reserve operates, and are stuck on new deal keynesian socialism as the solution to all of Americas problems.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:33 AM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,238 posts, read 19,201,326 times
Reputation: 10185
So you guys are saying that people that work at Starbucks and MacDonalds are doomed to low wages? That they are a disentitled class good for no more than a hand to mouth existence?

You think there's not enough money in those businesses for workers to make good dough?
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:37 AM
 
955 posts, read 1,983,986 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
So you guys are saying that people that work at Starbucks and MacDonalds are doomed to low wages? That they are a disentitled class good for no more than a hand to mouth existence?

You think there's not enough money in those businesses for workers to make good dough?
What I am saying is that in the example used, your marketing and business model would have to be able to support a $6 cup of coffee to pay that kind of wage. Is the demand out there that would support that kind of pricing? I think not.

The usual retort is that "the CEO and top brass make X times that of the workers". That may be, and I do not want to get sidetracked on whether or not that is a good or bad thing, but the reality is that those salaries are so miniscule in total dollars compared with the total overall wage dollars paid out that it gets rounded to zero in the analysis.

In other words, firing the top people and spreading out the total salaries over the workers would not allow them to get much of an increase at all. The numbers just do not support that.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,248 posts, read 21,876,353 times
Reputation: 3587
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70Ford View Post
Drivers’ Strike Stalls New York City Construction

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/02/nyregion/02concrete.html

Mr. Greco, who is also the secretary-treasurer of the Greco Brothers Concrete Corporation, said that under the expired contract, drivers earned $33.11 an hour, rising to $59.01 when health insurance, pension contributions and other benefits are included.

He said the union earlier this week demanded raises of $5 an hour in the overall compensation package each year for three years, although the union did not specify how much would go to wages and how much to benefits..

*********************
I did not know concrete truck drivers made that much.
That is not great money in New York City. It is OK money but not really great.
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Old 07-05-2008, 08:42 AM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,248 posts, read 21,876,353 times
Reputation: 3587
Unions are a good thing. We need more of them really. With no union, you have no rights at work. The boss can do what he wants and there is nothing you can do about it. And it is not always about the money and benefits. Sometimes it is just about basic fairness on the job. When workers are given discipline, the union does not help the worker escape penalty but they do ensure that the penalty is at least close to equal. They prevent the boss from playing favourites and not writing up one employee for being tardy while he writes up another employee for being tardy. Another thing I like about the union is that they ensure that workers have the right to ask for other jobs within the organization. For example, let's say a young guy gets hired on at a factory and he is assigned to work 4 to 12 (2nd shift). Let's say he works those hours for 4 years but then his kids are going off to school and he wants more family time so a job opens up on the first shift. With no union, that man would have no right to that job- or to even ask for it. With a union, he does have a right to that job. The boss cannot hire his nephew and put him in that job and leave the 4 year guy on the late shift.
People often think unions are only about the money and benefits but they do much more than that.
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