Is any one public school really "better" than any other? (public schools, salary)
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I really feel like parents want to send their kid to this school or that school only based on test scores. You can get a good education anywhere if you are invested in it. I teach at a school which is great, but parents still hope and pray that their little angel gets "chosen" in the lottery to go to the charter school, which is also in our area and quite honestly draws out some of our best students.
Who honestly believes that one school is any better than any other?
I think most of makes one public school better than another one is the quality of ones fellow students and how well their parents are as parents. You can have the best teachers in the world, but if you are surrounded by other children that aren't interested in learning and who would rather be street smart than book smart, then your academic experiences will be pretty awful.
So if the majority of parents are bad and not doing their job of raising their kids well to become good adults, then they are the ones that bring down the quality of the school. It's not a school's job to raise a bad parent's child well. I'm so tired of the teachers being blamed for society's ills.
This might make more sense as a poll. I know some public schools are better than others both in available resources and teacher quality. In areas where the teacher is not busy trying to control the classromm he/she can actually teach rather just play room cop.
Who honestly believes that one school is any better than any other?
I not only believe, but I know from 39 years of personal experience in the public schools, that one school can be dramatically better than another, and that even the same school can undergo dramatic changes for better and for worse over the course of the years, as administrators and faculty change, and as the demographics of the student population change. I have taught and worked as an administrator in a number of different schools. There is such a thing as the culture of a school, just as there is a culture in any organization or workplace. This consists of the unwritten collective attitudes of the people who make it up, from top to bottom, including their morale. In the case of schools, this includes parents. This culture is difficult but not impossible to change and it is more important than any concrete "objective" factor, including test scores, although a positive culture will have a positive impact on test scores.
Again, my opinion here is not just arm-chair theorizing, but is based on my experiences in the trenches. If anything, I have under-stated the case; I know of schools within a few miles of each other in the same school district that are so different it seems like they are on different planets.
I really like your question. I have always thought that the the quality of education rests mostly on the individual. If a student really wants to learn, there are plenty of resources for him or her (e.g. the internet). Unfortunately many children dislike school so I guess it is up to the parents and teachers to motivate these students. I also am skeptical that more funding for schools improves the education. Sure, books get outdated but how often does history change or mathematical ideas (at the k-12 level) get proven wrong? I had a middle school teacher tell me that salaries should be increased so that better teachers would be attracted to the school. But, you give me a text book and tell me what chapters to read and I will teach myself!
I really like your question. I have always thought that the the quality of education rests mostly on the individual. If a student really wants to learn, there are plenty of resources for him or her (e.g. the internet). Unfortunately many children dislike school so I guess it is up to the parents and teachers to motivate these students. I also am skeptical that more funding for schools improves the education. Sure, books get outdated but how often does history change or mathematical ideas (at the k-12 level) get proven wrong? I had a middle school teacher tell me that salaries should be increased so that better teachers would be attracted to the school. But, you give me a text book and tell me what chapters to read and I will teach myself!
In one sense I agree with you but in another sense I do not. First, I do agree that if a student's desire to learn is strong enough, then that student will indeed learn despite unfavorable conditions. One shining example of this was the black author Richard Wright, who grew up in Mississippi during the 1920's. Read his fascinating autobiography of childhood and adolescence entitled Black Boy. He did far more than overcome poor or mediocre schools, he overcame being actively held back as a black child, for example not being allowed to check out books from the public library. But his desire to learn was ferocious.
But now to the other side of the coin. Yes, you can read the textbook, but a good teacher will lead you beyond the textbook, will help you understand any parts you find difficult, will point the way to other points of view, and will help you place things in context. A good teacher's love of his or her subject will be contagious. And on and on and on. And a good atmosphere in the classroom will favor learning rather than discourage it. It all makes a difference.
I not only believe, but I know from 39 years of personal experience in the public schools, that one school can be dramatically better than another, and that even the same school can undergo dramatic changes for better and for worse over the course of the years, as administrators and faculty change, and as the demographics of the student population change. I have taught and worked as an administrator in a number of different schools. There is such a thing as the culture of a school, just as there is a culture in any organization or workplace. This consists of the unwritten collective attitudes of the people who make it up, from top to bottom, including their morale. In the case of schools, this includes parents. This culture is difficult but not impossible to change and it is more important than any concrete "objective" factor, including test scores, although a positive culture will have a positive impact on test scores.
This is the correct answer...A+... I'm going to add that the personal relationship between the teacher and student can transcend the culture of the community, family and school.
There are always students who can be reached and motivated by the right teacher at the right time. It might not even be the "best" teacher, just the best teacher for that student. That's the only thing I can think of that makes teaching worth it, certainly not the salary or status. When they tell you at the end of the year how much they got out of your class, or come back two years after graduation to thank you for helping get their life on track, that feels almost good enough to put up with all the crap.
I would say the "better" public school has a diverse teaching staff of all ages, races, genders, economic backgrounds, people of varied and differing life experience, social values and culture, and that to me is at least as important in assessing a school as teachers' academic credentials, certifications and test scores.
I think most of makes one public school better than another one is the quality of ones fellow students and how well their parents are as parents. You can have the best teachers in the world, but if you are surrounded by other children that aren't interested in learning and who would rather be street smart than book smart, then your academic experiences will be pretty awful.
So if the majority of parents are bad and not doing their job of raising their kids well to become good adults, then they are the ones that bring down the quality of the school. It's not a school's job to raise a bad parent's child well. I'm so tired of the teachers being blamed for society's ills.
I agree with this. Also, what makes one school better then another isn't just test scores. If you are in a school with a 45% passing rate vs a school with a 98% passing rate that is a good indication that there is something wrong there-and usually it is too many kids that just don't care about getting a good education.
When you are talking about schools that have a 98% passing rate vs a 96% passing rate the test scores are irrelevant. You know you have 2 schools were the vast majority of the kids care about getting a good education. You then look to things like how supportive is the administration, how financially healthy is the district, does the school have the programs your kids like/want, etc. If you look at just test scores our high school would be the 3rd 'best" school in our district out of 5 high schools but if you talk to the teachers in our district, our high school is the one they ALL want to teach in. The administration is fantastic, the kids are just down to earth kids, you don't get many kids that are over the top about cars, fashion, etc. It is pretty much a jeans/t-shirt type of school with a lot of hard working kids.
Now, the "test" scores in our district vary by a point from the top to the bottom so there really isn't any difference. Most people chose by activities. If you want the best band program in the state, you come to our high school, if your child is into speech and debate you go to the next high school, etc.
Yes, one public school can be very different than another. You can't just look at test scores or other numbers. The individual is obviously essential, but if there aren't sufficient support systems in place to allow that student to really learn then it won't be enough. I don't think there's a way to but a number value on it, though. There are just too many variables at play. Overall test scores seem a particularly meaningless way for parents to evaluate a school as a whole, and whether or not it's a "good" school, although poor test scores can be a starting point to investigate just why those scores are bad, and whether or not those reasons are enough to prevent a good student from having a stellar educational experience.
In my 20+ years of experience in public education, I have found that what Escort Rider is saying is very true.
"This consists of the unwritten collective attitudes of the people who make it up, from top to bottom, including their morale. In the case of schools, this includes parents. This culture is difficult but not impossible to change and it is more important than any concrete "objective" factor, including test scores, although a positive culture will have a positive impact on test scores."
You are spot on with this. Douglas Reeves has conducted years of research about 90/90/90 schools in our nation. These are schools that prove the stereotypes about socio-economic status and race wrong. They have 90% minority students, 90% students on free/reduced lunch, and 90% or more of their students meet or exceed the standards on the standardized tests such as the MCAs. When a school community decides together to set and work toward academic excellence, the goal can be achieved. It means that nobody can make the typical excuses of "the parents are no good, the kids don't care, we don't have enough money, etc."
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I honestly believe it!
