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Then admins will be incentivized to keep the teachers that result in the best performing classes.
Is it right to compare the performance of different classes? There are too many variables. The students are different. Their backgrounds are different. Their abilities and personalities all vary.
The apple cart has been overturned. If this get upheld, how teachers are hired and (especially fired) in CA will be in for a major change (for the better.) Hopefully other states will pick up on this, or it will go federal.
this is a terrible thing and only people that are jealous because they can get fired for anything would revel in the misery and downfall of others. It really speaks of a person's personality to do this.
So basically, a teenager can say this person touched me and it's not true, but a teacher can get fired anyway. A teacher can be seen at a bar in their off hours and get fired anyway. So people want to hold teachers to a "higher standard" but don't want to afford them any protections from those that would maliciously try to take those positions away through lies and deceit. Personally, I hope people get teaching and those that think that this is a good idea can deal with their own brats(most can't which is why they are sent to school in the first place)
Hopefully the ruling will stand through appeal. Teacher's unions, like so many others in the US have priced themselves right out of the market. I hope this sets a precedent throughout the states that does away with tenure for teachers. My daughter and son=in-law are both teachers, in a right to work state, that don't believe in tenure or seniority.
What job offers a job for life and protection from getting fired? I was an engineer and had to perform every year, was given a performance review and was not guaranteed a raise. My raise was a merit increase, based on my job performance. I could be fired or laid off whenever. i.e. I had to prove my worth every year. Teachers with tenure don't have to do a damn thing to keep their jobs. It's about time!
Wow, an engineer. I am not surprised. You want to take away tenure then fine, but pay teachers a decent wage. Lemme guess, you don't want to do that either right? Also, if you are that jealous of what they had, nobody stopped you from becoming a teacher either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
I know perfectly well what tenure is and why it exists. I worked in the Chicago public schools and the politics without tenure meant teachers were fired for political reasons.
Here is something on the history of tenure.
Before Massachusetts introduced teacher tenure in 1886, women were sometimes dismissed for getting married, becoming pregnant, wearing pants, or being out too late in the evenings.
Tenure protects teachers from being fired for personal, political, or other non-work related reasons. Before tenure, teachers could be dismissed when a new political party took power or a principal wanted to make room to hire his friends.
Tenure prohibits school districts from firing experienced teachers to hire less experienced and less expensive teachers.
Tenure protects teachers from being fired for teaching unpopular, controversial, or otherwise challenged cirricula such as evolutionary biology and controversial literature.
Tenure allows teachers to advocate on behalf of students and disagree openly with school and district administrators. (This one is close to my heart because I know teachers who have advocated for special education students who might have been fired if they were untenured).
Admittedly, the documentation process should be streamlined so that poor teachers can be fired more easily, but... in this litigious society, the problem is not tenure, but the abrogation of employee rights and the legal system.
this is exactly right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle
State and federal regulations protect against termination for almost all of those cases though (discrimination against gender, marital status, pregnancy, political views, etc.). And as I pointed out, teachers are told what to teach by the state of feds anyway, so the unpopular/controversial argument is largely irrelevant nowadays.
You have a point about teachers advocating for students, but how often are teachers putting their jobs on the line for students? Maybe it happens all the time, but I went through 13 years of school without seeing it,
State and federal regulations? HA! I could fire a teacher for anything I want. All I have to do is just make up some lame excuse while the real reason could be any other those other reasons such as gender, marital status or political views. As long as I don't say anything to anybody, no one would know. The burden of proof would fall on the educator and without none, they would not win their case.
On this general subject is there actually a way to rate teachers? I mean a rating system that can actually be correlated with something measurable. I expect it would boil down to test performance as I am not sure how else one would measure the quality of the education inculcated into a student other than by test.
I read the LA Times sequence on the subject and the surrounding papers. I came away with the conviction that many if not all normal teacher performance measurements are soft and don't have tracks to results.
this is a terrible thing and only people that are jealous because they can get fired for anything would revel in the misery and downfall of others. It really speaks of a person's personality to do this.
So basically, a teenager can say this person touched me and it's not true, but a teacher can get fired anyway. A teacher can be seen at a bar in their off hours and get fired anyway. So people want to hold teachers to a "higher standard" but don't want to afford them any protections from those that would maliciously try to take those positions away through lies and deceit. Personally, I hope people get teaching and those that think that this is a good idea can deal with their own brats(most can't which is why they are sent to school in the first place)
So let's recap shall we? People are actually held to performance standards and expected to do their jobs. If you don't do your job, you lose it. But hang on, TEACHERS should not be held to this standard because everyone would "maliciously try to take those positions away through lies and deceit." Paranoid much?
And holding teachers to performance standards is "misery and downfall"? Are you kidding me???? Thinking like this means the person is the bottom of the barrel and must seriously suck at their job.
Guess what? Teachers aren't a protected class. If you can't perform and do the job, then get out. You should be fired.
People should teach their own "brats"? You must be a teacher. Do the "brats" a favor and quit. They would be better off with anyone but you. And you say most people send their "brats" to school because they can't deal with them???
Ever hear of children getting an education?? What is wrong with you??? Did you go to school? If so, was it because you were a brat and your parents couldn't deal with you?
Teachers that think like this are self-serving fools that deserve to be run out of their jobs ASAP.
So let's recap shall we? People are actually held to performance standards and expected to do their jobs. If you don't do your job, you lose it. But hang on, TEACHERS should not be held to this standard because everyone would "maliciously try to take those positions away through lies and deceit." Paranoid much?
And holding teachers to performance standards is "misery and downfall"? Are you kidding me???? Thinking like this means the person is the bottom of the barrel and must seriously suck at their job.
Guess what? Teachers aren't a protected class. If you can't perform and do the job, then get out. You should be fired.
People should teach their own "brats"? You must be a teacher. Do the "brats" a favor and quit. They would be better off with anyone but you. And you say most people send their "brats" to school because they can't deal with them???
Ever hear of children getting an education?? What is wrong with you??? Did you go to school? If so, was it because you were a brat and your parents couldn't deal with you?
Teachers that think like this are self-serving fools that deserve to be run out of their jobs ASAP.
You appear to believe that a teachers job performance can be determined. I think there is good evidence that it is not doable at the present art. Do you know different? Cite a source please if you do.
You appear to believe that a teachers job performance can be determined. I think there is good evidence that it is not doable at the present art. Do you know different? Cite a source please if you do.
Uh, how about the scores and scholastic achievement of the students? Think that may be a place to start?
And please don't tell me that it's not fair to measure performance when it depends on someone else. That's their job. If the students don't learn, they aren't doing their job and should be replaced.
Uh, how about the scores and scholastic achievement of the students? Think that may be a place to start?
And please don't tell me that it's not fair to measure performance when it depends on someone else. That's their job. If the students don't learn, they aren't doing their job and should be replaced.
Uhh no. That does not work. You get a class of upper class students with virtually no turnover you will get very good scores...even if you don't teach very well. And if you get a low end demographics that turns over 60% during the year you will get bad scores pretty much no matter how good you are.
So absolute performance probably has more to do with student demographics than teaching ability. You could do the improvement from one year to the next...but if you don't have high continuity of the student set that does not mean much either.
And how do you compare an exceptional teacher who actually progresses a lower end class 1/2 a year in a year while a not very good teacher gets 1.5 years of progress out of an exceptionally good class?
Note that I consider this to be a real problem. And it may well not be solved at this point in time.
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