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They have? Not sure I agree with this. (And I don't think of algebra as higher level math.)
At one time, when there was still tracking, Algebra I was assigned only to the College Prep track. Those in academic might have gotten it in 10th or 11th grade while those in Commercial and General never took it.
At one time, when there was still tracking, Algebra I was assigned only to the College Prep track. Those in academic might have gotten it in 10th or 11th grade while those in Commercial and General never took it.
My high school had about three ways to take certain math classes; AP, normal and split into two sections.
The later would be say Algebra I and II given over two semesters.
Retired nurses can "crank out" dosages because that's what they did for their job for 40 years. They also basically just have a lookup table in their head. If you ask them how many mg of tramadol to give to a 2000 lb elephant they won't be able to give you the answer, even if they just gave a 200 pound guy 100mg.
Not all dosages lend themselves to "tables" and again the nurses gained their skills in math having to prepare/administer such for ten, twenty or more patients twice or three times per shift.
Reconstitution meds for instance do not lend themselves to tables because there are two parts. One is the diluent and the other being what said made up solution will now equal. From the latter is where the dosage to administer is derived.
Is it possible that Singapore education works because the students are primarily middle class Chinese and Indian?
Is it possible that we are reproducing/importing more kids from dumber stock?
Is it possible that 'rotten schools' have 'rotten students' rather than 'rotten teachers'?
You may say that I'm a dreamer, but am I the only one?
Works here too. I transferred my dd's from the local school to a charter school that used Sinapore math because Everyday Mathematics (an American invention) was killing my dd's math ability. Before doing so I signed her up for Sylvan. She was so far behind and so confused they wouldn't give the normal guarantee of one year's progress in 40 sessions but she ended up making more progress than that. A year later she had made ZERO progress in math so I transferred her to the new school (I could not afford to keep putting her through 40 sessions of Sylvan). In the first year she jumped two year's ability and was back on track. She stayed on track. Her sister who started Singapore math in 2nd grade tested out of high school algebra when she returned to the local school in 7th grade.
Our kids aren't dumber stock. They're just coddled. American math programs SPIRAL. You touch a topic and move on then come back to it again and again and again and again and again over the next several years. Our expectations are that kids won't get it the first time and that they don't need to remember it because we'll spiral back to it so they don't. We've trained them to think shallowly and not remember what they're taught. It's like pulling teeth to get kids to use algebra in chemistry. Even parents cry foul saying that their child should not be graded on math (or English) ability in science class.
Is it possible that Singapore education works because the students are primarily middle class Chinese and Indian?
Is it possible that we are reproducing/importing more kids from dumber stock?
Is it possible that 'rotten schools' have 'rotten students' rather than 'rotten teachers'?
You may say that I'm a dreamer, but am I the only one?
No. There is nothing special about middle class Indian and Chinese students in Singapore. And the best students in Asian countries would be considered poor in the USA. Your comment would make sense if American middle class students were good at math, but they are not.
The spiral comment above this is one of the best explanations I've read about the strategy used in the USA. I have never read it put that succinctly. Good comment.
In Singapore Math the students simply don't move onto the next phase until they've demonstrated mastery of the current phase. That does not work in the USA as it's taboo to "hold back" a student for any reason, especially if they are doing fine in other subjects.
I believe that part of this is developmental. I struggled with math in high school passing with D's. I kept taking math because I kind of liked it but it was a challenge. I didn't think I was any good at school and didn't go to college right away. When I started college at 25 they sent me back to algebra, which was a cake walk where it had been very hard before. Something changed from the time I was in high school until I entered college that had nothing to do with what I was taught. My brain worked differently (I did have a stroke at 19 but I doubt that is responsible for the difference here). I remember younger students telling me to wait until I got to calculus. THAT is where I fell in love with math. Math that you were expected to understand that made sense on a real world level. To me it was an endless supply of puzzles to solve. One of my profs used to kick me out of the room before going over some of the more difficult problems telling me "You need to figure this out on your own".
I cringe when I see younger and younger students pushed into classes like algebra and geometry. I doubt they're learning all they could because I suspect they're not developmentally ready for those math classes.
This is good to know. Sometimes subject matter can be developmental. I can't help noticing over the years, for example, how easily women going back to school later in life get through law school. It's a piece of cake, while the 21-22-year-olds struggle with it, like it's a big deal. Brain development, but also, life experience, have something to do with it.
That doesn't explain why students in other parts of the world handle math well, and are ahead of ours, though. I've heard that Romanian students cakewalk through math. Again, what are teachers there doing that we're not doing? Kind of fascinating.
Wow! This thread really took off since I last visited a day or two ago!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal
Not all dosages lend themselves to "tables" and again the nurses gained their skills in math having to prepare/administer such for ten, twenty or more patients twice or three times per shift.
Reconstitution meds for instance do not lend themselves to tables because there are two parts. One is the diluent and the other being what said made up solution will now equal. From the latter is where the dosage to administer is derived.
Yes, and for pediatrics it's way different b/c there are different doses for different size kids. Adult doses are fairly standard, with a few exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
Notice that I said people weren't able to understand math beyond the gradeschool level. Making change in your head is a grade school function. Math education didn't "start" going downhill recently. It's never worked past that basic level. People have always struggled with higher math: algebra and beyond. I don't know any 20-somethings who can't do elementary math.
I agree. And I disagree that older people such as myself are such math whizzes! Heck, before these electronic cash registers, many was the time I'd discover later that there was an error made in my change. At least now, if you enter the right numbers, which bar codes help with, you get the right change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person
That number has remained unchanged for decades going back to well before the current "College For All" push. What has changed is the number of high school graduates going to college, from 20% fifty years ago to just under 66% today.
EXACTLY! I remember my first boyfriend telling me that's what they told him at Penn State orientation in 1965, that half would drop out. DH said they told his freshman class at Caltech in 1966 the same thing, so it wasn't just a case of the state colleges. They didn't tell us that at the U of Pittsburgh, but I remember lots of female students dropping out to get married, some with only a semester or so to go. Now they drop out for different reasons, but the number remains about the same.
This is good to know. Sometimes subject matter can be developmental. I can't help noticing over the years, for example, how easily women going back to school later in life get through law school. It's a piece of cake, while the 21-22-year-olds struggle with it, like it's a big deal. Brain development, but also, life experience, have something to do with it.
That doesn't explain why students in other parts of the world handle math well, and are ahead of ours, though. I've heard that Romanian students cakewalk through math. Again, what are teachers there doing that we're not doing? Kind of fascinating.
That or human biodiversity. I don't like the political or moral implications of unequal natural endowments, but maybe adult women are exceptionally good at logic and language, Singaporeans and Romanians at math, and so on and so forth.
This is good to know. Sometimes subject matter can be developmental. I can't help noticing over the years, for example, how easily women going back to school later in life get through law school. It's a piece of cake, while the 21-22-year-olds struggle with it, like it's a big deal. Brain development, but also, life experience, have something to do with it.
That doesn't explain why students in other parts of the world handle math well, and are ahead of ours, though. I've heard that Romanian students cakewalk through math. Again, what are teachers there doing that we're not doing? Kind of fascinating.
Something we're not allowed to do. Holding their students accountable. We're expected to hold our student's hands and if we don't everything from our job to federal funding is on the line. We spiral back to topics over and over because we never expected our kids to get it the first time and Lord forbid I expect my students to USE something they learned before without giving them a review first. My dh used to say (regarding managing people in business) that 95% of getting someone to do something is just expecting them to do it. If we treat our kids like we expect them to not get it the first time and not remember it after it's taught that's exactly what they do.
The biggest difference between math education here and in asia is the amount of time dedicated to review. It's more than double here and we have a shorter school year.
Regarding my experience, I'm convinced that everyone has their own developmental curve. If you're not ready for something you're just not ready for it but that doesn't mean you won't be in a few years. By all rights I should have struggled in math in college. I had a poor math education in high school and barely passed my math classes yet I excelled at math in college. I have no doubt that I would have bombed math classes had I gone to college at 18.
Our kids aren't dumber stock. They're just coddled. American math programs SPIRAL. You touch a topic and move on then come back to it again and again and again and again and again over the next several years. Our expectations are that kids won't get it the first time and that they don't need to remember it because we'll spiral back to it so they don't. We've trained them to think shallowly and not remember what they're taught. It's like pulling teeth to get kids to use algebra in chemistry. Even parents cry foul saying that their child should not be graded on math (or English) ability in science class.
Ugh. They'll be dumber after a few doses of this.
I'm glad I went to private school and that it was a half century ago. 7th grade: Algebra I. 8th grade: Geometry. 9th grade: Algebra II. 10th grade: Solid geometry and trig. 11th grade: Pre-calculus and linear algebra. 12th grade: Calculus.
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