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Old 12-03-2018, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,427,175 times
Reputation: 4831

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Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
what I wish were

There, fixed that for you.
Turf, have you read the book?

The elite want you to think humans need wage labor to exist so they can retain power.

Sadly humans have developed for centuries without it.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,427,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLDSoon View Post
There isn't a "True nature of Humans" there is only a "True-nature-of-the-humans-i-have-experienced" by a particular author. Human societies are too diverse to be generalized. While some may live and die by Capitalism, other societies would probably do better with Communist or Socialist economies because that is what their culture requires. The idea that one way is superior is egotism and is probably a result of colonialism.

For the record...some of what you're saying sounds good. But it wouldn't work for many reasons; the main one being changing any system involves moving many parts, lots of conflict, participants and time-possibly generations. It has to start small and grow from there to work. There is virtually zero chance of changing the current system into what you describe. You'd have a better chance at starting something parallel in grassroots, getting some followers, adding more over time and eventually growing into a large somewhat universal alternative. An example is Montessori education which for all its benefits and age is yet to be mainstream.

When scale is attained you will run into the problems that come with it and if your foundations are shaky- and they sound like it- the whole thing will either crash and burn or evolve into something else.

It happens to all movements. This has been tried before; and can be tried again but you would have to approach it with more realistic expectations and be very aware of its limitations. Right now it sounds like you fell in love with an idea and have a very rosy view of it and cannot see just how idealistic and impractical it is.
I disagree. It is not only plausible but the way humans organize.

The groundwork is there, electric plants, fire departments, and public school buildings, and water systems. All operated by locals of that area.

Take away Central organization and allow the self management model that is already practiced to help distribute capital away from a few concentrations of wealth.
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:56 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,310,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
I disagree. It is not only plausible but the way humans organize.

The groundwork is there, electric plants, fire departments, and public school buildings, and water systems. All operated by locals of that area.

.
Poor thing...


The power plants, interstate highways, water and sewage treatment plants just magically built themselves?


In your utopia, how will these things be built, or replaced when - for example - a new fuel is needed for the generation of electric power, or - for example - the population of an area exceeds the capacity of its sewage treatment plant?


Will all the affected residents just gather round a campfire singing "Kumbaya" and somehow the leaders and technical experts to design the new systems will appear? And the laborers needed to carry out the works will somehow be motivated to do their work?


Or, just possibly, someone with the will to power, personal charisma, and access to weapons will enslave the others and make sure it happens?


Which do you think is more likely?
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Old 12-03-2018, 01:59 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,310,989 times
Reputation: 32252
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post

Sadly humans have developed for centuries without it.
Would you like to compare the conditions of humans living in the millennia before money and wages were developed, vs. the conditions of those living in the - what, 3000 or 5000 years since? And how about comparing the average human life both quantity and quality of 5000 years ago, against the average human life since the development of industrial capitalism?


Don't get me wrong - industrial capitalism is a system with many deep problems. But if you compare it to all the other systems that have been tried, I think the results speak for themselves. It is important, of course, for us to realize that industrial capitalism is a human construction, and so it periodically reaches points where it needs to be modified, and we may well be approaching one of those now.
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,427,175 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
Poor thing...


The power plants, interstate highways, water and sewage treatment plants just magically built themselves?


In your utopia, how will these things be built, or replaced when - for example - a new fuel is needed for the generation of electric power, or - for example - the population of an area exceeds the capacity of its sewage treatment plant?


Will all the affected residents just gather round a campfire singing "Kumbaya" and somehow the leaders and technical experts to design the new systems will appear? And the laborers needed to carry out the works will somehow be motivated to do their work?


Or, just possibly, someone with the will to power, personal charisma, and access to weapons will enslave the others and make sure it happens?


Which do you think is more likely?
Nice job at a total misconception of what I’m saying.

A network of federations exist as the same infrastructure a state does, only rather than capital being controlled privately it will be controlled cooperatively while community organizations will share power horizontally.

Economics and politics would be one in the same.
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Old 12-04-2018, 12:15 PM
 
10,075 posts, read 7,535,950 times
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Quote:
The community and the student body will set the curriculum for a given class year (even in the lower classes) and work won't be valued by grades, but voluntary participation.
What part of this is democratic? The current model already has the community setting the class agenda via education boards
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Old 12-04-2018, 02:02 PM
 
77 posts, read 52,546 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Turf, have you read the book?

The elite want you to think humans need wage labor to exist so they can retain power.

Sadly humans have developed for centuries without it.
So you want to get rid of wage or money? Ok, so what are you replacing it with? Please don't give me some illogical answers like "People will work for the love of working".
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,427,175 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by ST29 View Post
So you want to get rid of wage or money? Ok, so what are you replacing it with? Please don't give me some illogical answers like "People will work for the love of working".
People will work and organize democratically.

Work is different when it’s set up differently, why do you clean your dishes?

Furthermore production would be distributed freely like it has been for thousands of years before the age of empire.
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Old 12-04-2018, 07:31 PM
 
Location: California
37,131 posts, read 42,196,846 times
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No. Not as described in the OP. People are stupid, that's just a fact. There's a reason some things have lasted and stood the test of time, it's because they are less stupid than any student body or community at any one point in time.
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Old 12-04-2018, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
15,507 posts, read 6,427,175 times
Reputation: 4831
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
No. Not as described in the OP. People are stupid, that's just a fact. There's a reason some things have lasted and stood the test of time, it's because they are less stupid than any student body or community at any one point in time.
People are stupid because we let them become stupid.
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