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You are actually speaking to two different scenarios (applicable to two different types of people) and presenting it as an ‘either/or’ scenario for one person - when it’s really two different options for two different types of people (with different grades/interests/skills, etc). It’s a matter of what one wants to do (or what one is capable of doing).
Here is the nub.
In this age of everyone wearing egalitarian goggles, nobody wants to discuss the fact that not everyone is capable of absorbing a STEM education, cracking the internship puzzle, and getting and holding that high-echelon job.
Because we don't want to believe that, we have set up a system that won't acknowledge that eventually most kids are not going to make that level, and we haven't accepted the idea of preparing that majority of kids toward a technical vocation.
But high school counselors have no problem steering such kids to a useless Bachelor of Science in General Studies, and colleges have no problem selling such degrees to kids who can't handle anything more.
(And there might be a need to take a look into the trade union issue, because clearly they aren't making sure their trades are getting new blood.)
Location: As of 2022….back to SoCal. OC this time!
9,297 posts, read 4,580,042 times
Reputation: 7613
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
1. LPNs are nurses. For a while I taught at a hospital affiliate school pf practical nursing. (I taught psychiatric nursing at a private nursing school - where I actually learned quite a bit about them and their training)
2. LPN in some states, CAN start an IV. In my current state they need a certificate.
3. LPNs are taught to implement the nursing process. They learn nursing theory as well as practice. They write care plans. They also use standard nursing text books. In most states, the sme textbooks as RNs use.
4. LPNs can be charge nurses in long term care facilities in NYS, one of the states with higher standards.
5. Today, LPNs are granted advanced standing at many colleges and universities. Not only LPN to ADN programs, but LPN to BSN programs.
6. Many LPNs have some college, military experiences and some hold college degrees.
Yes they are....BUT they are NOT RNs..... they don’t sit for the RN board & for most stuff, they work under the supervision of an RN. It’s not the way to go anymore hun....they are all but phased out in acute care settings....they don’t have college degrees & they only have 1 year of certification & vocational training....
Do you get that the requirements are very different? They may have college...but it’s not required & most don’t. College is required to be an RN. An LPN or LVN....is in the title for Pete’s sake....it’s “licensed vocational nurse”. But an RN has an associate degree in applied science or a bachelor of science in nursing..........
Care plans aren’t the same as patient assessments & charting....care plans are super old school stuff & more for nursing homes & treatments & that’s a lot of what LVNs do. They get advanced standing because of their clinical background & experience ofc......so....yea...they still need to get their AAS or BSN...like I’ve been saying.....& they can do patient care in nursing homes because lots of nursing homes do not accept acute patients or IVs....there is always a Director of Nursing for that....
All the advanced standing means is that they test out of some basic clinical skills that they have done...like vitals, catheter care, wound care.......it’s really nothing....
Last edited by TashaPosh; 09-16-2019 at 10:37 PM..
If you work in the trades, many times you need a second career because your body will fall apart in your 40s and 50s. Some of my neighbors are electricians/plumbers/carpenters and they all have nice lifestyles and are financially secure. Most of them have physical issues, some that started in their 30s. Despite their financial success, they are directing their kids to college - away from physical labor. One of the plumbers is in his 40s and is running 4 crews in his own business. He has told me he can no longer move water heaters and furnaces due injuries and a worn out back. He also constantly talks about what a pain it is having employees and how much they cost him in taxes/insurance/mistakes. He also spends a lot of time trying to collect money and filing paperwork and permits and trying to generate new business to keep his crews busy.
The trades are not all wine and roses.
Tell that to my 67 year old contractor buddy. Sure he has his aches, As yours truly, a white collar college grad. Sorry, but your post/ opinion is not correct. Many college grads have health issues at age 60, as could anyone. In some ways working in an office environment is way worse than being your own boss. My friend has no plans to retire since he likes what he does and in charge of his work life.
Me: the last yeAr of my white collar career was made hell due to a new boss and I was developing physicAl problems from sitting too much. And how is dealing with permits, etc any worse than the performance pressures of the white collar/professional world?
Yes they are....BUT they are NOT RNs..... they don’t sit for the RN board & for most stuff, they work under the supervision of an RN. It’s not the way to go anymore hun....they are all but phased out in acute care settings....they don’t have college degrees & they only have 1 year of certification & vocational training....
Do you get that the requirements are very different? They may have college...but it’s not required & most don’t. College is required to be an RN. An LPN or LVN....is in the title for Pete’s sake....it’s “licensed vocational nurse”. But an RN has an associate degree in applied science or a bachelor of science in nursing..........
Care plans aren’t the same as patient assessments & charting....care plans are super old school stuff & more for nursing homes & treatments & that’s a lot of what LVNs do. They get advanced standing because of their clinical background & experience ofc......so....yea...they still need to get their AAS or BSN...like I’ve been saying.....& they can do patient care in nursing homes because lots of nursing homes do not accept acute patients or IVs....there is always a Director of Nursing for that....
All the advanced standing means is that they test out of some basic clinical skills that they have done...like vitals, catheter care, wound care.......it’s really nothing....
No. They are not RNs. They are LPNs, obviously, but they are NURSES - not medical assistants, or CNAs. Do YOU understand that? Are you a nurse? What type, if so? Have you taught nursing on any level?
They take the NCLEX-PN. In NYS and Ohio, they are taught to do everything an RN can do. They are TAUGHT to do anything. What they actually CAN do varies state by state. NYS reason for teaching them the same thing although they are not permitted to do everything in NYS - they may move to a more lax state. Where? Almost everywhere but NY. Ohio is pretty strict also.
LPNs chart.
I have worked with LPNs and I find them to be technically proficient. Many ADNs scare the crap out of me.
If you are an RN, you were at some point taught why there are LPNs/LVNs.
During WWII, many RNs were commissioned as officers in the armed forces. This also lead to the BSN. RNs were rushed through newly fashioned college programs, because commissioned officers need at least a baccalaureate degree.
At the same time, in the US, the deployment of RNs caused a nursing shortage. The solution was to quickly train a cohort of nurses to replace the RNs. These nurses needed to be trained in less than one year. They also needed to be able to do EVERYTHING that an RN can do.
They continue to be trained that way.
I "get" everything you are saying. Yes. In Texas and California they are called LVNs. What's not to "get"? In most states they are called practical, as opposed to vocational.
About 20 years ago, there was a movement to call ALL none BSN nursed Registered Technical Nurses - both LPNs and ADNs as well as the remaining Diploma nurses.
BSNs were to be called Registered Professional Nurses. LPNs would be grandfathered in, along with ADNs, as Registered Technical Nurses.
Why?
1. ALL Nurses are REGISTERED and LICENCED. That distinction is silly, at best.
2. Professionals, at the very least, should have a Bachelors degree.
I am not sure why you are so intense about this issue.
In this age of everyone wearing egalitarian goggles, nobody wants to discuss the fact that not everyone is capable of absorbing a STEM education, cracking the internship puzzle, and getting and holding that high-echelon job.
Because we don't want to believe that, we have set up a system that won't acknowledge that eventually most kids are not going to make that level, and we haven't accepted the idea of preparing that majority of kids toward a technical vocation.
But high school counselors have no problem steering such kids to a useless Bachelor of Science in General Studies, and colleges have no problem selling such degrees to kids who can't handle anything more.
(And there might be a need to take a look into the trade union issue, because clearly they aren't making sure their trades are getting new blood.)
Not everyone LIKES or is INTERESTED in STEM subjects.
Not everyone is capable of a Liberal Arts degree. I have seen this first hand.
I work for a community college that does a lot of that kind of vocational training.
Realistically, graduates of the the various career & technical ed programs will make $15-30 an hour, usually closer to $20 than $30. After a number of years they will of course make more. Most of our graduates who get hired in their target industry report $17-22 an hour starting wages. Not bad.
Registered Nurse is our top performer, they can make $35-50 an hour. But they also have to cast a wide net since we have pretty much saturated the local hospitals and clinics with nursing graduates.
Plumbing & electrician training is controlled by unions, and you have to survive their gauntlets to make the big bucks, which means surviving in the job for 10-15 years. Harder than you think. Yes, tradespeople who last can make 6 figures, but the reason not all of them are rich is because all of them don't last.
I was laborer and laborers apprentice's make good money, especially in a union state. In fact, all of the trade jobs by me make $32 dollars an hour + great benefits after they finish the apprenticeship.
I'd always recommend going into a trade vs wasting 40,000 dollars at a university, but don't bother going into a trade school if it's something you can learn on the job.
Location: As of 2022….back to SoCal. OC this time!
9,297 posts, read 4,580,042 times
Reputation: 7613
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12
No. They are not RNs. They are LPNs, obviously, but they are NURSES - not medical assistants, or CNAs. Do YOU understand that? Are you a nurse? What type, if so? Have you taught nursing on any level?
They take the NCLEX-PN. In NYS and Ohio, they are taught to do everything an RN can do. They are TAUGHT to do anything. What they actually CAN do varies state by state. NYS reason for teaching them the same thing although they are not permitted to do everything in NYS - they may move to a more lax state. Where? Almost everywhere but NY. Ohio is pretty strict also.
LPNs chart.
I have worked with LPNs and I find them to be technically proficient. Many ADNs scare the crap out of me.
If you are an RN, you were at some point taught why there are LPNs/LVNs.
During WWII, many RNs were commissioned as officers in the armed forces. This also lead to the BSN. RNs were rushed through newly fashioned college programs, because commissioned officers need at least a baccalaureate degree.
At the same time, in the US, the deployment of RNs caused a nursing shortage. The solution was to quickly train a cohort of nurses to replace the RNs. These nurses needed to be trained in less than one year. They also needed to be able to do EVERYTHING that an RN can do.
They continue to be trained that way.
I "get" everything you are saying. Yes. In Texas and California they are called LVNs. What's not to "get"? In most states they are called practical, as opposed to vocational.
About 20 years ago, there was a movement to call ALL none BSN nursed Registered Technical Nurses - both LPNs and ADNs as well as the remaining Diploma nurses.
BSNs were to be called Registered Professional Nurses. LPNs would be grandfathered in, along with ADNs, as Registered Technical Nurses.
Why?
1. ALL Nurses are REGISTERED and LICENCED. That distinction is silly, at best.
2. Professionals, at the very least, should have a Bachelors degree.
I am not sure why you are so intense about this issue.
Oh my...calm down. I said they were nurses but not RNs. If you compare pay & what they are able to do, they are *CLOSER* to an aid than a nurse in what they do on the floor, & they are being phased out of acute care settings. If you were a nurse, you would understand that......& you would understand the role they play in health care today......at a time when even some AAS RNs are being phased out with only 2 yrs of college....ofc vocational nurses with no college required are too. Goodness...what’s so hard about that? Are you an LVN....maybe you are offended by what I am saying.....? Because I really don’t know what this is about.......or why......but this doesn’t feel like a thing about LVNs or RNs....they are *not* the same just because they both are licensed. A nurses aid...CNA....gets licensed too.....
I don’t know how things were 20 yrs ago & I know there were more LVNs then...but I’ve been an RN BSN for nine years....*anyone* in health care can tell you vocational nurses are a dying breed......& are usually used for treatments & ADL patient care. If you work in a hospital...you know that I’m not saying anything new or groundbreaking here.....
The fact that not all have the chops for getting that higher education seems obvious, and yet, most people I know, have expressed high hopes for their children going to college. The trades were, at one time, considered a good way to improve your lot in life, but that was back when many young men had come from the farm/ranch life to the cities during and after WWII. Unions had paved the road ahead for most skilled tradesmen, great wages, and a growing list of benefits drew the workers to the shipyards, aircraft plants, machine shops, and a long list of manufacturing jobs. And, skilled labor looked easy when compared to the hard life of agricultural work.
Today's youth have had a comparatively soft life when compared to the life of their grandfathers, so, anything that smacks of hard/dirty work looks bad, and today's non union compensation rates are not in line with their tastes in clothing, cars, homes, vacations, etc. Once the unions were ground down, the trades lost their economic advantage of getting an early start on decent earnings, home buying, raising family etc.
As it stands today, you can choose to go into that last small sector of unionized well paid skilled trades, or go to college and try to figure out what to do once there. At any rate, there's no Nirvana implied in either choice. I've heard a fair number of business owners complain about the lack of skilled tradesmen, but no comment on the fact that they wanted the unions out of the picture, leaving the trades empty of any financial future for those entering the skilled labor force. If we were to get the money and benefits back in the blue collar workforce I'd think there would be a lot more interest shown in the apprentice programs. and OJT, earn and learn opportunities.
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Ohio is pretty strict also. 
