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I would think this is true, it's also incomplete. After all, that's what most of school is about, even the standard math and science courses in school, is teaching the basic humanities. In today's society, they are what we would call necessary but insufficient. Today you must know not just history and geography; literature and philosophy, but physics and chemistry and engineering. The mechanical arts as much as the liberal ones.
True. I was commenting specifically on humanities courses. But I could have gone on longer about how I've used mathematical reasoning in my life, long after classes I thought at the time were useless. A couple years ago I marveled that I created a function to solve a problem and didn't even stop to think about it until later - that I had learned that skill at some point in late high school or early college. I remember exclaiming to myself at the time "holy s*** those algebra classes were worth something after all!"
FWIW, not all white-collar industries these days care about degrees. Software development is one example --- it's all about your work history, projects, and current skills. Interviewers have only ever asked me about college to see if I might have done any relevant projects there that could be relevant to the job. Apparently these companies are fine with their employees not having the composition, analysis, aesthetic, integrative, or research skills that college is supposed to teach you.
Well, these skills are all important for software jobs in various contexts. But it's only really specific subsets of these skills that are required, which having a degree (CS or otherwise) wouldn't necessarily teach you, nor would it be the only way you could learn.
FWIW, not all white-collar industries these days care about degrees. Software development is one example --- it's all about your work history, projects, and current skills. Interviewers have only ever asked me about college to see if I might have done any relevant projects there that could be relevant to the job. Apparently these companies are fine with their employees not having the composition, analysis, aesthetic, integrative, or research skills that college is supposed to teach you.
Because they're part of the inferred package of competence that someone needs for a mentally demanding job, that presumably college either imparts to that person or confirms that they possess it. A toolkit if you will. To put it in a way one of my first bosses put it, "you don't notice these skills until someone DOES NOT have them, then the team is in a world of hurt."
I have firsthand experience with trying to lower education requirements for a position that I though did not need college at all. And theoretically the position should not need a bachelor's degree. It was like threading a needle to find people WITHOUT 4-year college who had the general competency needed, while at least 2 out of 3 degreed individuals had it.
It's hard to explain... but like I said it's not about any one piece of information that you learned in a class... it's a holistic package of brainpower that college does not necessarily guarantee, but the possession of a degree makes it much more likely that person has it than someone from the population who never went to college. Conversely, it is not the case that lack of a college degree means the person is not or cannot be educated, but it's just less likely, especially now that college is more of a common thing.
E.g.: My grandfather never went to college but was so well-read you'd think he had at least a master's degree when you heard him talk or read his writing. But it was my great-grandmother's influence of imparting a habit of reading on him. She read poetry and literature to him starting almost after he was born and got him into the habit of reading a lot which he never lost. As a result his letters are beautiful, it's as if some literary author wrote them.
Last edited by redguard57; 08-17-2021 at 06:38 PM..
FWIW, not all white-collar industries these days care about degrees. Software development is one example --- it's all about your work history, projects, and current skills. Interviewers have only ever asked me about college to see if I might have done any relevant projects there that could be relevant to the job. Apparently these companies are fine with their employees not having the composition, analysis, aesthetic, integrative, or research skills that college is supposed to teach you.
Well, these skills are all important for software jobs in various contexts. But it's only really specific subsets of these skills that are required, which having a degree (CS or otherwise) wouldn't necessarily teach you, nor would it be the only way you could learn.
You are overstating things. I'm sure there are some hiring managers at some companies who don't care much about degrees. However, there are many others that do. My wife is a CIO with several hundred software developers in her org. chart. Every single one has a degree. So does every manager, director, engineer, security specialist etc.
E.g.: My grandfather never went to college but was so well-read you'd think he had at least a master's degree when you heard him talk or read his writing. But it was my great-grandmother's influence of imparting a habit of reading on him. She read poetry and literature to him starting almost after he was born and got him into the habit of reading a lot which he never lost. As a result his letters are beautiful, it's as if some literary author wrote them.
This also speaks to the quality of even an elementary education in the past. Students who finished eighth grade were expected to be able to read and comprehend literary classics, write grammatical sentences, and use correct spelling. My grandmother never went to high school at all; when she finished eighth grade in 1910, she went straight to work because her family needed the money. But she enjoyed literature and especially poetry--I have her binder full of poems she had copied out. I also have a number of letters she wrote to my parents; her handwriting was beautiful and there are no spelling or grammatical errors. If the average high school graduate of today could write so well, everyone would be jumping up and down with joy.
But she had very little scientific knowledge, and while her basic computation was very good (she worked for years doing accounts in the office of a coal company), she never learned any math from algebra onwards.
Because they're part of the inferred package of competence that someone needs for a mentally demanding job, that presumably college either imparts to that person or confirms that they possess it. A toolkit if you will. To put it in a way one of my first bosses put it, "you don't notice these skills until someone DOES NOT have them, then the team is in a world of hurt."
I have firsthand experience with trying to lower education requirements for a position that I though did not need college at all. And theoretically the position should not need a bachelor's degree. It was like threading a needle to find people WITHOUT 4-year college who had the general competency needed, while at least 2 out of 3 degreed individuals had it.
It's hard to explain... but like I said it's not about any one piece of information that you learned in a class... it's a holistic package of brainpower that college does not necessarily guarantee, but the possession of a degree makes it much more likely that person has it than someone from the population who never went to college. Conversely, it is not the case that lack of a college degree means the person is not or cannot be educated, but it's just less likely, especially now that college is more of a common thing.
E.g.: My grandfather never went to college but was so well-read you'd think he had at least a master's degree when you heard him talk or read his writing. But it was my great-grandmother's influence of imparting a habit of reading on him. She read poetry and literature to him starting almost after he was born and got him into the habit of reading a lot which he never lost. As a result his letters are beautiful, it's as if some literary author wrote them.
Very well said.
My father never finished high school. But he was well read and well informed in matters around the world. After the war he had various odd jobs and owned a couple of small businesses before discovering a talent for marketing and eventually becoming a consultant. He was well regarded in his field and was an early advocate for safety in youth sports, including things like faceguard helmets, breakaway bases, and "deader" bats 30 years before they become commonplace today.
I am starting to see these academy/house based consolidated high schools in Kentucky.
These would be a great way to start pushing a trade route vs. a college bound vs. a standard route and so on and so forth. Get your standard classes like English, Alg 1, and things of that nature largely during your Freshman and Sophomore years and then take classes based on your house during Junior and Senior year. You may have an Algebra II or Geometry case designed for the trades that provides real-life examples in that section and so on and so forth.
Thank you. Interesting concept. I can see an application in larger schools but could it be applied to lower size schools? It sounds similar in ways to the separate high school (college bound) and Vo-Tech high schools (trades bound) that were in use when I went to school. Since most schools didn't have enough students to do both topics, by combining smaller schools you got enough students in each.
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