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Why should career be a measurable for adults, it is not measurable for anything other than, a career...which can be achieved through screwing people over, brown nosing, using social connections, family history and capital. Somebody accumulating money is no better than a homeless person believing they are accumulating toilet tissue roles for instance.
What does hard work even mean...? Is one occupation better than another? A few instances of smart work then making capital off capital accrued would produce more instrumental good than 30 years labor at a lower pay rate. Or perhaps, non participatory action n a system you disagree with could be your own version of success.
Most careers are only instrumentally good, a certain means to an end, or an end in itself, but far from intrinsically good. Believing a career is good is definitely subjective, and misguided in most cases.
I've quit several jobs and turned down pay raises, does that make me less successful, less of a man, or downgraded my IQ? I certainly would never measure success by a career, social status, title or anything to that accord.
It's one of the measureables for what we accomplish in life. It is a measure of how much we give back to society. How responsible we are. How able we are. There are others such as volunteering in your community. That's another measure of giving back to society.
I don't think IQ has much to do with either. Nor do I think it influences happiness, relationship success or any other kind of success. I think hard work matters more.
It's fascinating the things different people value, isn't it?
You are assuming that the two are mutually exclusive.
As for the definition of "success", I don't think it's possible to measure something that subjective. Further, trying to determine whether intelligence makes a difference in levels of "success", considering all the other variables which would have to be accounted for, is a fool's errand. You're more than welcome to it, but it's meaningless.
No I'm not. I said earlier that the person with the high IQ would have to work as hard as a person with a lower IQ to stay ahead. My experience is that's not what happens. Either that or it doesn't work as an adult. Hard work seems to be the thing that pays off for adults.
What we have is not somebody who is not gifted. What we have is somebody in denial (or ignorance) of her own ability, convinced by how we taught (and teach) girls about their own aptitude, that she was not as smart as her siblings or the others around her.
In general, girls learn to hide or diminish their own abilities even (or especially) when they succeed.
Possibly. It's been my experience that people pretty accurately report their own relative intelligence, social skills, and degree of devotion to their invisible friends online. (Looks...maybe not so much.) If Ivory states that she's not, as they say, smarter than the average bear, I'm not inclined to argue the point.
It's one of the measureables for what we accomplish in life. It is a measure of how much we give back to society. How responsible we are. How able we are. There are others such as volunteering in your community. That's another measure of giving back to society.
Originally you measured only career, and secondly social status. Now you add societal usefulness, though I expect there's probably a hierarchy there, as well-- soup kitchens being more important a volunteer venue than, say, public radio. Nothing noted about personal fulfillment, either.
From where do you derive your "measureables" (sic)?
Possibly. It's been my experience that people pretty accurately report their own relative intelligence, social skills, and degree of devotion to their invisible friends online. (Looks...maybe not so much.) If Ivory states that she's not, as they say, smarter than the average bear, I'm not inclined to argue the point.
I am. If one has multiple gifted siblings and one fits in with high ability people, makes it likely one is gifted as well.
And... I believe one often accurately reports in anonymity - but only what one knows. (And, of course, there are those who just like playing games. I've bumped into more than a few totally invented personalities. But that's not related to this topic.)
It's one of the measureables for what we accomplish in life. It is a measure of how much we give back to society. How responsible we are. How able we are. There are others such as volunteering in your community. That's another measure of giving back to society.
I don't think IQ has much to do with either. Nor do I think it influences happiness, relationship success or any other kind of success. I think hard work matters more.
for career success I imagine hard work does matter more, but it doesn't influence happiness, relationship either. Like I said before, how good you are in your career, is only a measure of your career. I can certainly name a whole host of ethically challenged companies that aren't giving much back to society.
Lets use an analogy, Melvin Mp3er thinks he is doing a great gift to society, by collecting all the mp3s he can, sorting them, naming them efficiently, tagging them and adding them to a database. He shows the collection to all his friends. And they marvel at how long this took him, and get some stuff from him. But they worry he doesn't have much of a life outside of this and isn't very well rounded. This brings no real intrinsic good, it is a bit misguided.
Vijay Volunteer gives all his spare time to his volunteer work, he thinks it brings meaning into his life. He feels better about himself all the time. Meanwhile, while peers were busy working extra, and he was giving help to the poor. He has sacrificed more of his time, and didn't do well in that yearly meeting, thus he now is fired, when he could have easily improved his own skills like others, and kept his job. Now he is poorer than the people he served.
I could go on and on with examples on this, and the main lesson is don't get too attached much on this whole success thing. It doesn't mean that much in the big picture. That is nice you can convince yourself of it to motivate you though so you are happy, if that is what is necessary. Sometimes other people will recognize it in your current time as well, but move the clock ahead 100 years and you will be forgotten more than likely, and perhaps even critiqued harshly or frowned upon by the future inhabitants of this planet. People do the same thing convincing themselves there is a god as well, or that if they get X job they will be happy, of if they get a certain girl they will be happy, or many other misguided things.
Possibly. It's been my experience that people pretty accurately report their own relative intelligence, social skills, and degree of devotion to their invisible friends online. (Looks...maybe not so much.) If Ivory states that she's not, as they say, smarter than the average bear, I'm not inclined to argue the point.
I'm smarter than average, just nowhere near gifted. I know what gifted looks like as I've spent most of my life around gifted people including one brother, one sister, my husband and my daughter. My choice of career also put me in contact with quite a few formerly gifted children. To be honest, by the time we all had our masters degrees, there really wasn't much difference left.
Yes, I know it's still a measurable difference and, technically, you get to call yourself gifted if you're over an IQ of 135 but I'm really hard pressed to put any real meaning on that. Unless you're talking hugh differences, it's just a number when you're an adult.
And thanks for the vote of confidence. I have a pretty good handle on my abilities. Fortunately, there are wide ranges of IQ's that are capable of the same accomplishments. I've had people argue before that I must be gifted to have accomplished what I have and I find it funny. It's like people think accomplishment and IQ are linked somehow. Well, they are but only in the broadest sense. People, like me, who are not gifted, are quite capable of accomplishing the same things the gifted do. Personally, I'm glad it worked out that way. I'd hate to think a number I was born with determined what I could do.
for career success I imagine hard work does matter more, but it doesn't influence happiness, relationship either. Like I said before, how good you are in your career, is only a measure of your career. I can certainly name a whole host of ethically challenged companies that aren't giving much back to society.
Lets use an analogy, Melvin Mp3er thinks he is doing a great gift to society, by collecting all the mp3s he can, sorting them, naming them efficiently, tagging them and adding them to a database. He shows the collection to all his friends. And they marvel at how long this took him, and get some stuff from him. But they worry he doesn't have much of a life outside of this and isn't very well rounded. This brings no real intrinsic good, it is a bit misguided.
Vijay Volunteer gives all his spare time to his volunteer work, he thinks it brings meaning into his life. He feels better about himself all the time. Meanwhile, while peers were busy working extra, and he was giving help to the poor. He has sacrificed more of his time, and didn't do well in that yearly meeting, thus he now is fired, when he could have easily improved his own skills like others, and kept his job. Now he is poorer than the people he served.
I could go on and on with examples on this, and the main lesson is don't get too attached much on this whole success thing. It doesn't mean that much in the big picture. That is nice you can convince yourself of it to motivate you though so you are happy, if that is what is necessary. Sometimes other people will recognize it in your current time as well, but move the clock ahead 100 years and you will be forgotten more than likely, and perhaps even critiqued harshly or frowned upon by the future inhabitants of this planet. People do the same thing convincing themselves there is a god as well, or that if they get X job they will be happy, of if they get a certain girl they will be happy, or many other misguided things.
Actually, how good you are in your career is a measure of how well you're able to deal with whatever your career dishes out. Career is also linked with satisfaction in life. Choice of career and success in your career says a lot about who you are and what you are able to handle. Do you like challenges, or do you shy away from them? Do you lead or are you a follower? Do you like to think outside of the box or prefer to be told what to think? There is a reason we're judged by our careers.
I've said before that has been the hardest thing making the switch into teaching. As an engineer, it was assumed I was intelligent and capable. It was assumed I'd do my job to a high standard. As a teacher, I'm looked down upon. Parents ask things like "Oh, couldn't cut it in the real world?" when they find out I made a career change. It's seen as a cop out. As if teaching is what you do if you can't do anything else.
Possibly. It's been my experience that people pretty accurately report their own relative intelligence, social skills, and degree of devotion to their invisible friends online. (Looks...maybe not so much.) If Ivory states that she's not, as they say, smarter than the average bear, I'm not inclined to argue the point.
As far as Ivory goes, I agree. She hasn't a thing to hide. We aren't egotistic male employees trying to make her feel an inch tall in the hallways at school. She is proud of who is and out to prove that the average Joe (or Betty) can be whoever they want to be.
I think that Ivory worked very hard for where she has got in life, and continues to for that matter. She is proud of her accomplishments, especially in comparison to those in her own family who were born with the gifted genes, as she should be proud. I do not discount her knowledge and abilities or her drive to reach her dreams. I admire and respect those aspects of her.
However, she seems to be using her degrees to measure her self worth. The fact that she downplays students of hers regularly whom she claims are of high IQ with such a downbeat, discouraging and unconstructive attitude completely contradicts her claims to want to help students excel. She also regularly resents anyone who discounts her or challenges her to prove what she states as fact. She feels she does not need to because she has already proven herself through her accomplishments and nothing more is needed. That to her, is what makes her equal to everyone else. She is reacting to her own lack of self worth and transferring that to her students, empathizing with the average students and seeking revenge on those who are above. She does that by setting different expectations on class assignments for those gifted students with the very purposeful intent to lower their grade regardless of the quality of the work in compared to the other students or the actual expectations outlined by the assignment instructions. She sets out to make them fail as much as she feel she can get away with (such as only going as low as a B) through setting unequal standards, prejudicing against them based on what she perceives is their individual ability, yet all the while states time and time again that gifted kids should not have specialized, tailored education.
Of course anyone who applies themselves can get further than might have been projected at birth if IQ was the only factor taken into consideration. She is correct about that. The fact that she lacks the physical ability to relate and understand someone on a completely different wave length does not give her any substantial tools to discount the IQ that they were born with. Her lack of tolerance and respect for intelligent students in her class is very concerning. If I had known her personally, I would have maybe gone as far as to slip a tip to her superiors about what is being said here so that they could keep a closer eye on her, review her history with above average kids.
Ivory is vindictive to her students and will go on tirades against tailored education, yet go so far as to admit she does just that. I personally think that, while her pride in her own accomplishments is justified, she needs to search within herself and try and to address the root of those pent up feelings so she can provide a healthy classroom for all her students. Whatever happened, lowered expectations, no one thinking she'd get as far as XYZ relative, ect, needs to be admitted and dealt with. I think that a carreer change, one without vulnerable victims in her sights, would he a healthy start, at least until she's had the therapy needed to deal with whatever is bottled up inside.
Actually, how good you are in your career is a measure of how well you're able to deal with whatever your career dishes out. Career is also linked with satisfaction in life. Choice of career and success in your career says a lot about who you are and what you are able to handle. Do you like challenges, or do you shy away from them? Do you lead or are you a follower? Do you like to think outside of the box or prefer to be told what to think? There is a reason we're judged by our careers.
I've said before that has been the hardest thing making the switch into teaching. As an engineer, it was assumed I was intelligent and capable. It was assumed I'd do my job to a high standard. As a teacher, I'm looked down upon. Parents ask things like "Oh, couldn't cut it in the real world?" when they find out I made a career change. It's seen as a cop out. As if teaching is what you do if you can't do anything else.
Yes, it is how well you are able to deal with what your career dishes out, not what LIFE dishes out. You enter it by your own choice, and there are no real standards...
Career is not linked with satisfaction in life, it is only so if you convince yourself if moving up the career ladder is a goal of yours. This isn't an intrinsic value though. For me working in some corporate career climbing a ladder would do absolutely nothing for my self worth, it might even take it in the opposite way.
Who is judged by their careers? I certainly wouldn't judge somebody by their career, that to me is absolutely absurd.
Leading or following is only that, leading or following. You are no less of a person for either. There is really not much value either way in them either.
I wouldn't say they say much about you, most people choose their career when they first go to college at 18, hardly with the foresight necessary to envision future job markets or occupations. I wouldn't particularly like any career, I have multiple interests and would never try to define somebody by their career. The only reason I even participate is that I am in a mixed capitalistic system which forces me to work. The government and the elites already own everything, even owning the land, the government still owns it and you must pay said taxes on it, so you must come up with some type of income. They want you to participate, even if they say they were founded on individual liberties. In better times I might live off the land, produce a few vegetables and write all day as a scholar, spend more time with my family, or possibly stop an invading barbarian force. None of those choices hold much more weight than another though...
Often people are more a product of society than they would like to think.
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