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Please correct me if I am mistaken, but to the best of my knowledge, taxes levied on property support the local school in the district which surrounds it, not merely the city. Isn't this the reason why (let's say in Chicago) many people want to live -- and send their children to school -- in Highland Park (a place where property is quite expensive) rather than East Rogers Park (a place where property is cheaper)?
Moreover, whether one uses a service or not is irrelevant if you have to pay for it. I am paying for many services I do not use with my taxes. I am paying for fire department services I (thankfully) have not had to use. I am paying for hospitals I (thankfully) do not have to use. It's part of what we all have to ante up, whether we choose to play one hand or many. Therefore, though we homeschool, I am paying for my local school district -- whether my child uses it or doesn't.
You are correct that parents do flock to such cities, however, that doesn't change the fact that ALL taxpayers in that city pay for the schools not just the parents. It's incorrect to say we pay our children's way because we don't. Since the surrounding community foots the bill, they have a say in how the money is spent.
Again, you're correct. We pay for these services whether we use them or not because they're good to have around. That's, exactly, my point. Schools don't exist to serve the desires of parents. They exist to serve the desires of the community and they are structured to best serve the community not the individual as a result.
That's, exactly, my point. Schools don't exist to serve the desires of parents. They exist to serve the desires of the community and they are structured to best serve the community not the individual as a result.
Agree with this.... But what would best serve a community? Using tax dollars to meet the educational needs of the majority (average IQ)? Or, spending tax money to "bring up" the lowest performing and, perhaps, prevent their future drain on the community? Or, spending more money to educate/mentor our highest performers ("the gifted") who may some day be our top (most globally competitive) innovators in medicine, science, business, technology, etc...? Of course, every parent wants the educational system to best meet their individual child's needs - perhaps at the expense of others.
p.s. Interestingly, many of my friends worry that it is their "average ability" student who they think is being left behind. They feel schools focus more attention/resources on both the lower performing/LD students AND the higher performing/gifted students while ignoring all those in between. I'm not sure if this is valid or not.
Agree with this.... But what would best serve a community? Using tax dollars to meet the educational needs of the majority (average IQ)? Or, spending tax money to "bring up" the lowest performing and, perhaps, prevent their future drain on the community? Or, spending more money to educate/mentor our highest performers ("the gifted") who may some day be our top (most globally competitive) innovators in medicine, science, business, technology, etc...? Of course, every parent wants the educational system to best meet their individual child's needs - perhaps at the expense of others.
p.s. Interestingly, many of my friends worry that it is their "average ability" student who they think is being left behind. They feel schools focus more attention/resources on both the lower performing/LD students AND the higher performing/gifted students while ignoring all those in between. I'm not sure if this is valid or not.
If you use NCLB as a guide, it's bringing up the bottom. One we can rule out is serving the top. That doesn't benefit society. Those are the kids who will do well anyway.
I agree that the emphasis is on lower performing students. When you judge schools and base their budget on percentage meeting a minimum score, that's what you encourage. Personally, I'd like to see a system where schools are judged by year over year average performance. That way you can aim for gains in all sectors instead of spending 80% of your resources on the bottom 40%.
I find schools really don't care about my kids. My kids pass the test walking in the door. The only reason my kids get anything is the threat I'll pull them out and send them to another school and then it's not much. Just moving dd#2 up a grade or two and getting the teacher to work with dd#1 after school but I really don't expect much in the way of special treatment for my kids in a public school. At the charter I did because my kids came with the state monies allocated per child and either the school was going to address the needs that resulted in us moving to the charter or we were going back to the convenience of neighborhood schools. Both of my dd's were in separate track G&T programs there but that was one of the sales points for this school. They advertised as a place where a G&T child could be on a separate track. Unfortunately, that track disappears in 7th grade so we're back in the local schools. There's no longer any incentive to drive my kids to school every day and structure our lives around picking them up.
You are correct that parents do flock to such cities, however, that doesn't change the fact that ALL taxpayers in that city pay for the schools not just the parents. It's incorrect to say we pay our children's way because we don't. Since the surrounding community foots the bill, they have a say in how the money is spent.
Again, you're correct. We pay for these services whether we use them or not because they're good to have around. That's, exactly, my point. Schools don't exist to serve the desires of parents. They exist to serve the desires of the community and they are structured to best serve the community not the individual as a result.
Then you have the gifted homeschooling group. They pay out taxes to for the local school and NO foots the bill for our kids except us.
Not only that....we have our own business so we are the least burden on society, are extrememly self reliant..have our own garden, buy local, ect so we are the least burden on the society and our environment....YET we have the most taxes taken from us! In fact, at the heart of the stimulus bill are more taxes on small businesses! I can't wait to file taxes next year! So we get taxed, taxed, and taxed again and we do not most of the crap our taxes are going for....like the big four way being put in here between two towns that suddenly ended up as a rebuilding of the two way...which is not what the town's people on either side had wanted their tax money to go to as the road was just fine. It would have been nice as a four way but once they repaved the part that was already a four way, they just suddenly changed plans. Hmmm....Makes me wonder what really is going on.
Why is that the statstically top preforming homeschoolers and less burden small businesses get hit the hardest? That demographic is statistically middle America and above. I guess Minnesota you can claim a pretty good amount of school supplies on your tax return but no other state does that and the only other out is to have a business that travels, like a ridiculous carnival or something so that you can write off every single things you buy from gas to groceries (with the exception of clothing.) You can even claim a TV and house plants if your use them in your office but other than that, you are pretty raked through the coals so being gifted actually works against you if you decide not to be "nomal" and follow the mass of "average" people.
I refuse to let that sit with me. My kids have something that they need to have fed, watered and encouraged to grow so hopefully one day they can help fix that mess in some way.
If you use NCLB as a guide, it's bringing up the bottom. One we can rule out is serving the top. That doesn't benefit society. Those are the kids who will do well anyway.
So long as you keep repeating this falsehood, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Some of them do well anyway.
Many do not.
The top 10% of the students (in terms of ability) represent 20% of the drop outs. The loss to them and to society is astounding.
You are correct that parents do flock to such cities, however, that doesn't change the fact that ALL taxpayers in that city pay for the schools not just the parents. It's incorrect to say we pay our children's way because we don't. Since the surrounding community foots the bill, they have a say in how the money is spent.
Again, you're correct. We pay for these services whether we use them or not because they're good to have around. That's, exactly, my point. Schools don't exist to serve the desires of parents. They exist to serve the desires of the community and they are structured to best serve the community not the individual as a result.
To take my Highland Park example, the folks in Highland Park are subsidizing the Highland Park schools. They're not subsidizing, say, a high school near 61st and Drexel, nor are the inner-city folks paying for the (let's say) New Trier kids.
And aren't "parents" a significant part of that "community"?
To take my Highland Park example, the folks in Highland Park are subsidizing the Highland Park schools. They're not subsidizing, say, a high school near 61st and Drexel, nor are the inner-city folks paying for the (let's say) New Trier kids.
And aren't "parents" a significant part of that "community"?
Statistically speaking, no. If our life expectancy is something in the 70's and our children spend 13 years in public school, we spend way more years, as tax payers, without kids in the public schools than in. By the time I retire, I'll have been a tax payer for about 50 years. I'll be a mom to a school aged child for, roughly, 15 years. I'll spend twice as much time as a tax paying adult without children in the schools as I will as one with children in the schools so, no, parents don't make up a large portion of the population. Seems to me the last time I looked, the average age of an adult in my city was something in the 40's.
Looking at my neighbors, only about half of us have kids in the schools. Some are older couples, some are younger couples and some just chose to not have kids and then there are those who choose private school and don't use the public schools at all. They should also be counted among the non users who are paying for the system.
This is a funny conversation. We have a Highland park here but it's nowhere you'd move for the schools.
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler IMO, a gifted child who needs speical treatment probably isn't really a gifted child or has other issues that must be dealt with.
Mmmm...okay. Assuming for the sake of argument that that's true, a gifted child with "other issues" is no less gifted. The denial of multiple exceptionalities only continues to exist in extremely backward school systems.
But even aside from the multiply exceptional child, gifted children are a whole separate category. They learn differently, not just faster. I mean, I'm sure it would be lovely if they were just this tidy little category that existed for the ease of teachers, but that's not the case.
Being smarter than everyone else, and not being challenged is a disability in and of itself.
My son calls it being "deep in shallow water". He dropped out at age 16, after never being able to adjust to school.
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So we get taxed, taxed, and taxed again and we do not most of the crap our taxes are going for....like the big four way being put in here between two towns that suddenly ended up as a rebuilding of the two way...which is not what the town's people on either side had wanted their tax money to go to as the road was just fine. It would have been nice as a four way but once they repaved the part that was already a four way, they just suddenly changed plans. Hmmm....Makes me wonder what really is going on.
