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a) Well Joe's name according to the AP this morning is actually "Sam" (that is what he goes by too)...
? b) he's not actually a plumber (doesn't have a plumber's license even though Ohio requires him to - even working for someone else), has never had schooling or training nor is a member of any plumbing trade orgs) Specifically in Ohio:
You are wrong. A Maser License requires experience and schooling in most states.
1) be at least 18 years of age;
2) be a United States citizen or a legal alien-must provide proof of being a legal alien;
3) either have been a tradesperson in the type of licensed trade for which the application is filed for not less than five years immediately prior to the date the application is filed, currently be a registered engineer in this state with three years of business experience in the construction industry in the trade for which the engineer is applying to take the examination, or have other experience acceptable to the appropriate section of the board;
c) he initially misrepresented his income (he earns about 40k per year, and doesn't have nearly enough money to purchase a company which nets 250-280k in annual profit),
Apparently you know nothing about buying a business.His income is not a factor. The business' income is what is the factor.
d) he has no small business experience (and also doesn't realize that a company which earns 250k in revenue will actually have much less taxable income at tax time)
How do you know what his experience is? and most business' have an office to set appointments and do billing/payroll. How do you do know what the business' taxable income is?Taxable income is AFTER deductions.
e) has no concept that Obama's plan actually is much better than McCain's for 98% of small businesses out there.
Too bad your way off here. Obama wants to RAISE taxes, payroll AND capital gains. Plus the $250,001 - $280,000would probably be average joes income and thus he income taxes would be HIGHER!
who cares. you just talked about him making 40k a year, now he is wealthy? you will argue anything to make your point factual or not.
g) Joe is a Republican as of this year but was previously a Natural Law Party member.
i thought he was independent, but this matters why? obama was the one who picked him.
h) Joe owes back taxes to his state (apparently he is against paying taxes in general).
$1,200which means perhaps his employer messed up his withholding's or he had 1 less withholding than he needed. Has nothing do with not refusing to pay taxes, lol.You people are so arrogant and ignorant when it comes to trying to prove a point.
I mean seriously folks... one or two of those things being off would be "ok," but this guy with all those things against him has no credibility in my book. He approached Obama and asserted himself into the spotlight to make Obama look bad. The truth is, regardless of whether or not a Republican Group put him up to it as a plant, Sam behaved like one. So no, I don't feel sorry for this fellow. He didn't have to do what he did and approach a major politician on camera with a made up story. That was just foolish. The fact that the media dug up all the "facts" on this guy so quickly to me is a great thing.
you are wrong with 90% of your FACTS. your a fool for posting this and not having a clue about anything goes to show even when your educated the problem is your source is not and your not smart enough to see through it.
a) Well Joe's name according to the AP this morning is actually "Sam" (that is what he goes by too)...
b) he's not actually a plumber (doesn't have a plumber's license even though Ohio requires him to - even working for someone else), has never had schooling or training nor is a member of any plumbing trade orgs)
c) he initially misrepresented his income (he earns about 40k per year, and doesn't have nearly enough money to purchase a company which nets 250-280k in annual profit),
d) he has no small business experience (and also doesn't realize that a company which earns 250k in revenue will actually have much less taxable income at tax time),
e) has no concept that Obama's plan actually is much better than McCain's for 98% of small businesses out there.
f) He is related to the Keating 5 group (research this not so glorious part of McCain's past to learn about it) - Joe the Plumber? More like Joe the Keating Family Operative | Crooks and Liars
g) Joe is a Republican as of this year but was previously a Natural Law Party member.
h) Joe owes back taxes to his state (apparently he is against paying taxes in general).
I mean seriously folks... one or two of those things being off would be "ok," but this guy with all those things against him has no credibility in my book. He approached Obama and asserted himself into the spotlight to make Obama look bad. The truth is, regardless of whether or not a Republican Group put him up to it as a plant, Sam behaved like one. So no, I don't feel sorry for this fellow. He didn't have to do what he did and approach a major politician on camera with a made up story (and a fake name). That was just foolish. The fact that the media dug up all the "facts" on this guy so quickly to me is a great thing.
You are actually doing a great job of making my point.
What difference does it make? The issue was the question, and both candidates response to the issue.
Joe, his background and finances, are irrelevant.
All that matters is the candidate responses to the expressed sentiments.
you are wrong with 90% of your FACTS. your a fool for posting this and not having a clue about anything goes to show even when your educated the problem is your source is not and your not smart enough to see through it.
^ your earlier rebuttal is simply incorrect. Fact is he is not licensed as a plumber. John McCain said in the debate that "now Joe wants to buy this business he has worked so hard to attain", that is impossible (we can all review the clips). He is in no position to obtain a company (particularly in the current lending environment due to the economy) with a stated income of 40k. Obama's plan is not delaying this guy's american dream, his low income level is...he can't afford to now. Your reference regarding taxable income being after deductions actually proves the posters point, that in all likelihood his income level would be lower. And his 1200 tax bill is a lien...that means he made no effort to set-up a payment plan through the IRS, and that it was not some recent employer oversight concerning his taxable income. If that is ever the case you file an amended return and set-up a payment plan, and if the employer is at fault then the burden shifts to them to coordinate a wage garnishment schedule that is able to be paid by the taxpayer. Joe is simply irresponsible. If he is hard up for the 1200 due to some personal circumstance, which would be his only sympathy play, then I direct your attention to the first point regarding it being impossible for him to be on the verge of purchasing a company which would net him 250+ in personal taxable income. Although the OP obviously had a partisan tilt to their perspective, the facts listed were not 90% wrong. I could care less about the Keating thing...it reminds me of other stupid loose "connections" Sarah Palin and McCain's backers have been trotting out about Obama...silly.
You are actually doing a great job of making my point.
What difference does it make? The issue was the question, and both candidates response to the issue.
Joe, his background and finances, are irrelevant.
All that matters is the candidate responses to the expressed sentiments.
Well, she is and she isn't.
The real truth here, and perhaps the real point (at least from my POV), is that McCain yet again tried an "I'm sure this is what the average poor slob I can't relate to wants" tactic that backfired, because it's not just Dems who are all over this Joe the Plumber thing. Republicans are equally fascinated by him, and not just from a defensive position, either. He is, in fact, more fascinating than the actual question to both sides.
McCain just keeps trying to understand us Poor Unwashed...and keeps failing. He failed with the "let's just stick a woman in here, any woman...all the women in the U.S. will absolutely flock to us" bit. Now he failed with his Joe the Plumber bit...even from his own following's side.
Meanwhile, the U.S. public is distracted, and yes, the actual question has been washed away under that current. Yet even with Obama's answer there's no damage done, because as you can see from the other thread along these lines, we don't mind Obama's answer at all. And those of you who already minded the answer (and the principle) weren't voting Democrat anyway, so what's been lost here?
This is all really just a time killer during the final 2.5 weeks before Election Day, and a much needed distraction, but a condemning or vote-changing event? That just didn't happen.
Precisely! Both candidates talked about Joe the Plumber, but McCain dragged the guy into it. McCain made it seem that Joe the Plumber represents every American with a dream, so of course it started a crazy media firenzy. Overall, I think Joe is enjoying his time in the spotlight, so who really cares?
The really funny thing about this is that Joe has realized he made a mistake ... that Obama would lower his taxes!
According to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, Obama's tax hikes apply only when personal income, not the value of the business, rises above $250,000.
"What goes on your income tax form is your profit, not your gross receipts," said Eric Toder of the Tax Policy Center.
So today, Joe, who said he makes much less than $250,000, reluctantly admitted Obama would lower his taxes.
"I would, if you believe him, I would be receiving his tax cuts," Wurzelbacher said.
Also,
Quote:
Wurzelbacher told Obama Oct. 12 as the Illinois senator canvassed his neighborhood that he was about to buy a business that earns as much as $280,000 a year.
``Do you believe in the American dream?'' Wurzelbacher asked Obama, citing the Democrat's proposed tax rate increase for Americans earning more than $250,000. ``I'm being taxed more and more for fulfilling the American dream.''
Wurzelbacher hasn't paid the taxes he already owes, according to the state of Ohio, which placed a tax lien against him for $1,182.98 on Jan. 26, 2007, that is still active. A second judgment against him was filed in March 2007 by St. Charles Mercy Hospital for $1,261, records show.
The company McCain said the plumber wants to buy has annual sales of $510,000, according to an analysis by Dun & Bradstreet. That makes it unlikely that Wurzelbacher's purchase would give him a taxable income of more than $200,000 -- leaving him unaffected by Obama's proposal to roll back tax breaks for those earning more than $250,000, said Steven Bankler, a certified public accountant in San Antonio, who counts plumbers and other trade professionals as his clients.
Few Businesses Affected
Few such small businesses have enough income to be affected by Obama's tax changes, Bankler said.
One other problem in making Wurzelbacher a symbol of the overtaxed: he would pay just $773 more in taxes under Obama's plan than McCain's if he did earn an adjusted gross income of $280,000, according to an analysis by the Tax Foundation, a Washington research group that is critical of high taxes.
Earning that much would make Wurzelbacher very unusual among small businesses. According to the Internal Revenue Service, most small businesses organize in ways that allow their owners to pay taxes at personal rates rather than as corporations, which impose a second layer of taxes. Almost 95 percent of 21.5 million owners of small businesses who file as sole proprietors had receipts under $100,000 in 2007.
I find this stuff to be very funny, and a great summary of how the media has behaved this entire campaign (the full cycle).
Poor Joe gets in line and has the great fortune to ask a question. The response from Obama gave McCain an opening to publicly target the differences in their economic philosophy.
Joe is then subsequently interviewed, and says he supports McCain.
Since then, Joe has been accused of being a plant, linked to Keating 5, found to owe taxes and not have a license.
Instead, if he had stated he supports Obama, he would have been found to be a leader in his community, a boy scout leader, rescued a cat from a tree, a volunteer at a food bank, and have perfect dental records.
No media bias...what a crock.
Never mind the media. It is their job to dig up information. If he had supported Obama, Fox News would have dug up all that stuff.
What I hope Joe the Plumber and everyone else learns is to be very careful and well informed before you run your mouth: i.e. don't start talking about opening up a business when you don't even have a license to operate legally and when you probably have less than good credit to apply for a business loan. If he wants to decline the Obama tax cut that is his choice.
I am quite sure other (successful and smarter) plumbers everywhere are laughing their butts of and calling Joe a jackass!
you are wrong with 90% of your FACTS. your a fool for posting this and not having a clue about anything goes to show even when your educated the problem is your source is not and your not smart enough to see through it.
Dave, you make me laugh. You are as terse and sharp with your writing as I would expect someone too emotionally involved in this election. Relax man, I wasn't attacking you in my post. Below I've responded to most of your comments.
a) read the following - Sam has no plumbing license. That was my point previously and it stands. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber (broken link)
b) When applying for a loan to buy a business, of course your current and historical income and savings (and your overall balance sheet) are important; as is the whether you have any liens against you. Sam doesn't make much money, has a lien against him, and I will argue probably couldn't get a business loan approved to purchase a company worth 250k in value much less one which historically produced 250k in annual income to the owner.
c) I know what taxable income is... you repeated my point but stated it differently and yet still neglect to realize that under Obama (and even with current tax law), after all deductions it is the remaining income which will be taxed. A business or individual which after deductions earned 250k+ will be taxed at 39% under Obama (vs 36% right now).
d) You need to read up on Obama's plans... When you take into account the tax along with the healthcare plans of Obama, a small business with 249k or less of taxable income will experience no increase in taxes. Since small businesses with 249k or less of taxable income represent 98% of all small businesses, my point stands.
e) Your comment about Sam being an Independent makes it clear to me that you haven't read about the guy. That information like most of the other stuff dug up is a matter of public record and published online, readily available for you to find and read.
f) Sam's back taxes owed to the state are public record as a lien against him... do you know what that means? That means he didn't upon learning that he owed the IRS call them back and set up a payment plan or write out a check. It means they haven't been able to get him to pay the back taxes. You can point blame at his employer, but the reality is that this is October and he's had since he first ran calculations for his 2007 filing to rectify the issue but he hasn't.
It's true when it comes down to it, none of this stuff really matters. The reality is that Sam mentioned a scenario to which Obama responded. Also worth noting, Socialism is much more than "spreading the wealth" - so that accusation against Obama is pretty shallow. Socialism would involve the government owning all our land, all the businesses, etc. The concept of spreading the wealth in context that Obama shared is about giving new, young entrepreneurs the chance to have the level of financial success that we thought Sam already had per his story. I don't see why that is a bad thing. Obama's not talking about giving lazy, freeloading people money and services, but instead about ensuring that any young or new entrepreneurs have the opportunities and benefits afforded to much wealthier people, and very large corporations today. If you doubt me, then go online and find the actual conversation transcript of Obama and Sam's conversation. In context that whole "let's spread the wealth" comment makes more sense and is less threatening.
If Obama had used the Joe the Plumber example and the things about him came out, the media would be all over it! You betcha faux news would have it and the other media outlets competing with Faux would have it as well..
Is it a buzz job or a terrorist head shave? Joe the Plumber: Coming up next on Live with E.D. Hill on FoxNews.
The media could put Mother Teresa under a microscope and find things about her that would malign her reputation.
You know what I liked best about Joe the Plumber? When interviewed by the media, it was clear he was still proud to be an American. He didn't feel he had to apologize for how great this country is. He has a deep love for his country. He has a deep respect for the military. He just wants to survive in this crazy world and leave it maybe just a bit better for the next generation.
I can overlook back taxes, no plumber's license (at least the guy is working vs. living on welfare, unemployment or begging the government to send him to trade school) and a lot of other things because down deep, Joe is the real deal.
And learning about Joe does not make me lean more towards one candidate over the other. As a matter of fact, I am still undecided. But I'm rapidly getting disgusted by how the Democrats are handling this situation and it's starting to color my perceptions of Obama. If I were him, I'd leave well enough alone.
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90% wrong?
