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My only question here is whether or not the Principal in question bans the wearing of other shirts. The Principal is legally correct to state no such wear is allowed. And in fact the Principal might be wise to do so because I know that it can cause fights. The Republican children would most likely pick a fight over the shirt- especially in South Carolina which is largely a stone age Klan religious nutcase place anyway. And it goes both ways. I know in parts of Chicago a McCain shirt would get the snot beat out of any kid. I am only stating that the Principal may not decide that a McCain shirt is OK and an Obama shirt is banned.
There was a huge issue at my old high school in the Pittsburgh area when a kid wore a John Elway (former Denver Broncos palyer) shirt to school the Friday before a Broncos-Steelers playoff game. A teacher harassed the kid, encouraged other kids to throw spitballs at hime, and so on. There was a lawsuit. My kids told me that there were issues like that in their schools, too, when kids wore University of Nebraska shirts before a University of Colorado-University of Nebraska football game. It's not a bad idea to ban all that stuff. You can quote Supreme Court decisions until you're blue in the face, but the one that's been posted applies only to black armbands, strictly speaking and is from 1969. Schools have long been able to regulate kids' dress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd
The first question that comes to mind is, do kids not wear any t-shirts at the school? Is this principal a republican? What about the teachers at that school who probably had Obama bumper stickers on their cars? It makes one go hummmmmmm?
I'm an elementary school teacher in CA, and trust me, my students can wear Obama T-shirts, WWE T-shirts, and Hanna Montana T-shirts. Wearing an Obama t-shirt is a freedom of expression just like wearing a WWE, Hanna Montana, or football jersey. I think that there's more to this story.
Not every district is so lenient. My kids were not allowed to wear shirts advertising drugs, alcohol or tobacco, whether they were T-shirts or otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesAbilene
Well, it was okay for the 43 white presidents. We have to have new rules now that a black man has been elected. I can't believe this crap.
We don't know in this case if they were allowed to wear T-shirts with other presidents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl
Aren't there photos of the president up in the school?
There never were in my school ages ago, or in my kids' schools in the very recent past.
There have been many judgement calls by schools that some argreed with and some didn't. Did a quick net search and found some students were sent home for wearing anti-war shirts, anti-Bush shirts, pro-Kerry shirts, a US Marines shirt, and one student was sent home for dressing like Jesus for Halloween.
Shirts that advocate controversial postions and could create a disruption to the learning environment can be banned. However if challenged in court the district has to be able to ARTICULATE the reason why. If electing a person President and swearing them in is controversial and disruptive to the learning enviorment then the school system can ARTICULATE that in court. I would love to hear them ARTICULATE this one. Believe I know this one and the key word is ARTICULATE how and not I think. On the other side the plaintiff would have to show how protected freedom of speech was being denied and you judge for yourself which would be the easiest to convey in court.
This is still the classic case that all other decisions come from: Tinker v. Des Moines School District (1969)
Tinker et al. v. Des Moines
Independent Community School District et al.
Legal precedent for those who care about those kinds of things to support their position. Speech Rights of Public School Students
Students do not, the Court tells us in Tinker vs. Des Moines, "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door." But it is also the case that school administrators have a far greater ability to restrict the speech of their students than the government has to restrict the speech of the general public. Student speech cases require a balancing of the legitimate educational objectives and need for school discipline of administrators against the First Amendment values served by extending speech rights of students.
There was a huge issue at my old high school in the Pittsburgh area when a kid wore a John Elway (former Denver Broncos palyer) shirt to school the Friday before a Broncos-Steelers playoff game. A teacher harassed the kid, encouraged other kids to throw spitballs at hime, and so on. There was a lawsuit. My kids told me that there were issues like that in their schools, too, when kids wore University of Nebraska shirts before a University of Colorado-University of Nebraska football game. It's not a bad idea to ban all that stuff. You can quote Supreme Court decisions until you're blue in the face, but the one that's been posted applies only to black armbands, strictly speaking and is from 1969. Schools have long been able to regulate kids' dress.
Not every district is so lenient. My kids were not allowed to wear shirts advertising drugs, alcohol or tobacco, whether they were T-shirts or otherwise.
We don't know in this case if they were allowed to wear T-shirts with other presidents.
There never were in my school ages ago, or in my kids' schools in the very recent past.
Not true about Tinker being limited to arm bands. You need only do research or be involved in education law to know that isn't true. Tinker v Desmoines is far reaching and is the floor for subsequent cases. It establishes both the rights of students and the rights of school districts. The burden is on the district and most sophisticated districts have policy and guidelines in place for administrators. When in doubt it is best to consult up the ladder. Just because a community allows the school to be more restrictive then the law permits does not mean application of those restrictions would stand up if challenged. You now see in the case this thread is about, that the superintendent is trying to find the legal wiggle room as this has gotten more attention then the principal expected. Thus the modus operandi for wise administrators is to assume that every decision will go to the Supreme Court. On the other hand some Principals assume they won't be challenged and can get away with it if it is convienent to making their day easier. This one goofed.
So based upon what the superintendent said, it would have been ok for the student to wear the shirt "after" Obama was sworn in as president. The student wanted to wear the shirt the day of swearing in. That's a questionable judgement call. I think the principal was doing a CYA decision to avoid any possible confrontation. When I was in school we always had a photo of our current and some past US presidents posted somewhere in the classroom.
It is not the superintendent who DECIDES what is within his boundaries to restrict but the court to decide. The super can with legal opinion INTERPRET the law and hope they are right.
I think a lot of you posters are missing the point of why the principal did it, I agree with the principal. You have to understand how kids are sometimes, they react sometimes by things they hear their parents and other adults say. The principal may have saved the kid from getting knots put on his head by not allowing him to wear the shirt. My wife teaches high school and I hear some strange things that kids do in school now days. We had a girl here that got the crap beat out of her for wearing a NY Jets jacket.
Most kids do not give two s***s, nor do they understand anything about politics (at least not enough to shoot someone over it). Kids do fight, over silly things. Banging someone's girlfriend, being emo, being smelly, being a nerd...but politics is one of the few things most kids that age are not worried about at all. The shirt is NOT giving out any message to any one aside from the fact that we have a new president.
It is a shirt. With our president. That the nation elected to be.
It's not a piece of propaganda. I hardly doubt there are millions of 6 year olds who are so crushed by McCain's loss that they will take a gun to school and shoot their classmate by the jungle gym. Your arguments are weak, now you're just grasping at straws.
Kids getting bullied, beat up and hurt because of their clothing isn't anything new at all. Kids have been, and always will be made fun of for what they wear this isn't a new concept that just started happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paullySC
Any political themed clothes are not appropriate for school.
So you are saying an elementary school kids t-shirt is promoting political ideas? LOL.
You my good sir are a tool. It is a t-shirt on a kid, the school isn't promoting anything. I suppose you think all kids should wear a uniform then right? I mean all these kids with band shirts in school are promoting bands and that's not what school is for! Navy pants and a collar shirt for boy and a nice skirt with a white top for girls! We don't want anything to be promoted by a kid in elementary school do we!
Its a t-shirt, it is not offensive therefore there is nothing wrong with wearing it and the school is in the wrong.
Legal precedent for those who care about those kinds of things to support their position. Speech Rights of Public School Students
Students do not, the Court tells us in Tinker vs. Des Moines, "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door." But it is also the case that school administrators have a far greater ability to restrict the speech of their students than the government has to restrict the speech of the general public. Student speech cases require a balancing of the legitimate educational objectives and need for school discipline of administrators against the First Amendment values served by extending speech rights of students.
Thanks for saying that. BTW, I have to say, I have no problem per se with a kid wearing an Obama shirt, and I do think the principal backed himself into a corner.
My kids told me that there were issues like that in their schools, too, when kids wore University of Nebraska shirts before a University of Colorado-University of Nebraska football game. It's not a bad idea to ban all that stuff. You can quote Supreme Court decisions until you're blue in the face, but the one that's been posted applies only to black armbands, strictly speaking and is from 1969. Schools have long been able to regulate kids' dress.
First, as a 7-2 decision Tinker remains a seminal decision and has been the basis for deciding every subsequent case up to and including Morse v Fredrick in 2007.
As for your anecdotal story, with all due respect, equating the promotion of football jerseys with clear political speech, not only trivializes this discussion but the basis of the First Amendment as well. We send our children to school to teach them to become active and productive citizens. We teach them the basic structure and traditions of our democratic heritage. We do these things through class elections, mock presidential elections, debates, and classroom discussions of the issues. It is the height of lunacy to then turn around, and prohibit their, albeit limited, participation in this most basic and vital civic responsibility, voting.
The expression of a political point of view, in this case, by passively wearing a article of clothing, is clearly within the scope of Tinker. To argue that showing support for a political candidate ( I won't even address the issue that the candidate was the President Elect) running for national office would be "disruptive" makes one wonder what passes as intellectual discourse in this school. Disruption, in the form of conflicting ideas should be the sine qua non of an educational environment particularly when the conflict of ideas addresses the most basic aspect of a participatory democracy, voting.
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