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There is also as I mentioned before some particular close similarities between Swedish (North Germanic) and German (West Germanic), even if they are not mutually intelligible.
First part of the Swedish version of Silent Night:
Swedish version of Silent Night, but translated directly to German with machine translation:
Not sure if it's a 100% correct translation, but you can see the similarities. There is also an intresting but close false friend there. The word "stund" exists in both Swedish in German, but in Swedish it means moment, and in German it means hour. So in this direct translation, stund translates to moment. And of course the German word moment is the same as in English.
And here is the same text directly translated to English with machine translation:
The Swedish words stilla, natt, allt, stjärnan, helig, skiner, strå, vakande, två, Kristus, kommen, oss, änglars, här, rund, hjord and ord shares a common pattern with both German and English.
The word glädjens shares a common pattern with English only.
The words en, frid, herdars, vaktande, stall, sina and slår shares a common pattern with German only.
Then there is of course a few words like frälsare (savior), jorden (earth) and kring (around) that did not share any pattern with English or German, but most words did in some way.
Words like Swedish "kommen" is more similar to German "gekommen" than English "come", but you can still see that the words has obviously the same origin, "come" is not very different at all from "kommen". And yet there is still ignorant people who insists that English is somehow not Germanic...
Germanic is a language group of it's own just like Romance and Slavic, some Germanic languages has gotten more Romance influence than others, but that does NOT make them non-Germanic.
And actually, kommen (to come) is German as well. Gekommen is past tense (came)
And actually, kommen (to come) is German as well. Gekommen is past tense (came)
In Swedish, kommen means "has came". For example, the sentence "Kristus till jorden är kommen" properly translates to "Christ has came to earth".
The sentence is by the way written in a bit old fashioned Swedish since Silent Night is an old song, in more modern Swedish the sentence would be "Kristus har kommit till jorden", in that order.
In Swedish, kommen means "has came". For example, the sentence "Kristus till jorden är kommen" properly translates to "Christ has came to earth".
The sentence is by the way written in a bit old fashioned Swedish since Silent Night is an old song, in more modern Swedish the sentence would be "Kristus har kommit till jorden", in that order.
It's really cool having Swedes like you around as I've never had an opportunity to learn anything about the language. my favorite music artist is Swedish.
Does anyone know if Limburgish is intelligible with Dutch, or if it's even considered as a dialect? On wikipedia it says that it is a language. And how about Frisian? Sounds alot like Dutch to me, but with a few Scandinavian and English words. I would assume though that they all speak Dutch fluently since they live in the same country.
No, Limburgish is not really intelligible with Dutch for the most part. I know because I moved to Limburg a few years ago. I do not understand the Limburgish dialect apart from a few words here and there. It's not just that the accent and words are different, it's mainly the tone and rhythm of speaking. Limbourgish is more "sung" (a bit like Swedish) with every sentence basically sounding like a question. Frisian is also not intelligible for the most part but it also depends on who's speaking. There are varieties within the language as with every other language.
Yes, Limburgers and Frisians all know how to speak Dutch fluently and are not opposed to it (as is the case in some countries). In fact, there are people in Limburg and Friesland who only speak Dutch and not the regional dialect.
Yes, Limburgers and Frisians all know how to speak Dutch fluently and are not opposed to it (as is the case in some countries). In fact, there are people in Limburg and Friesland who only speak Dutch and not the regional dialect.
Are these regional dialects (Limburgish and Frisian) mostly used by older people? Or younger folks also speak them actively?
And what language can you hear in Friesland and Limburg more often: regional or Standand Dutch?
Are these regional dialects (Limburgish and Frisian) mostly used by older people? Or younger folks also speak them actively?
And what language can you hear in Friesland and Limburg more often: regional or Standand Dutch?
Well, Limburgish and Frisian are actually two of the stronger languages but for most Dutch dialects, it is true that they're mostly spoken by the older generation. The younger generation does usually retain the regional accent so there's still quite a bit of variety. Here in Maastricht I hear the Limburg dialect all around me (also from younger people, even little children) but I don't know how it is in the rest of Limburg. In the region I was born and raised, the local dialect is Low Saxon but it is mostly spoken by the older generation. I don't really speak it (my parents do) but I can understand it. I think the same is true for most people my age.
It's so strange how small Germanic countries can have dialects and borderline languages that are so different from the standard dialect/language of the country. There is similar places here in Sweden where people speak a local dialect that no one else can understand, or that others at least will find very hard to understand. Luckily everyone can speak Standard Swedish.
Modern Gutnish is one of the hardest ones to understand, by some argued to be a dialect, by some argued to be a language:
An example of how the text of this song for example can be if you write in Modern Gutnish:
Modern Gutnish:
Quote:
Summan kummar me sol kummar yvar hällmark u stain,
yvar förfädas bain, yvar martall, yvar ain.
Yvar maurar u mack, leiksum yvar pinnsvein u rack.
Skeinar soli igen pa ladingen.
Summarn de är när soli kummar yvar Austargarn,
summar de är när brimsar brummar u myggar bleair me ban.
Summar de är när Palme gåimar si pa norr nånstans.
Visst skudd de vare trist skudd de var um summan inte fanns.
Summan kummar me sol kummar yvar hällmark u stain,
yvar förfädas bain, yvar martall, yvar ain.
Yvar maurar u mack, leiksum yvar pinnsvein u rack.
Skeinar soli igen pa ladingen.
Vackat kan vare mosse pa en gammel sprucken stain,
vackat kan var u hald si bei fast bärgningi är klain.
Vackat kan vare sånt som kalles fäult nån annanstans.
Visst skudd de vare trist skudd de var um Gotland inte fanns.
Summan kummar me sol kummar yvar hällmark u stain,
yvar förfädas bain, yvar martall, yvar ain.
Yvar maurar u mack, leiksum yvar pinnsvein u rack.
Skeinar soli igen pa ladingen.
Standard Swedish:
Quote:
Sommaren kommer med sol kommer över hällmark och sten,
över förfäders ben, över martall, över en.
Över myror och mask, liksom över igelkottar och folk.
Skiner solen igen på våren.
Sommar är när solen kommer över Östergarn
Sommar är när bromsar brummar och myggor blir med barn.
Sommar är när lyckan bjuder sorgen upp till dans
Visst skulle det vara trist skulle det vara om sommar inte fanns
Sommaren kommer med sol kommer över hällmark och sten,
över förfäders ben, över martall, över en.
Över myror och kryp, liksom över igelkottar och folk.
Skiner solen igen på våren.
Vackert kan vara mossa på en gammal sprucken sten.
Vackert kan vara att hålla ut fast inkomsten är klen.
Vackert kan vara sånt som kallas fult någon annanstans
Visst skulle det vara trist skulle det vara om Gotland inte fanns
Sommaren kommer med sol kommer över hällmark och sten,
över förfäders ben, över martall, över en.
Över myror och mask, liksom över igelkottar och folk.
Skiner solen igen på våren
Here is the Lord's Prayer in Modern Gutnish:
Quote:
Oe fadur, du sum jäst i himmelij,
hailigit varde titt nafn.
Kume ditt reike näste us.
warde dein wilo, sum i himmelij så ukså pa jordene.
De dagliga braud gif us i dag, uk fyrilat us ora skulda,
sum vörr fyrilatum daim, sum us skulduga järo,
uk laid aij us in i fristelse,
Men heldur freia us fra deij aumba.
Fyr reike jär ditt u makti uk herlighaiti
i fran nå u i aiwiga teida.
Amen.
And here in Standard Swedish:
Quote:
Fader Vår, som är i himmelen
Helgat varde ditt namn.
Tillkomme ditt rike.
Ske din vilja, såsom i himmelen så ock på jorden.
Vårt dagliga bröd giv oss idag, och förlåt oss våra skulder,
såsom ock vi förlåta dem oss skyldiga äro,
och inled oss icke i frestelse
utan fräls oss ifrån ondo.
Ty riket är ditt och makten och härligheten
i evighet.
Amen.
However, few people speaks Modern Gutnish today. It lives 57,000 people on the island of Gotland, and the majority of them speaks Swedish with a slight Gutnish accent that can only sometimes be a bit difficult to understand for mainlanders, but usually not any problems.
Modern Gutnish is spoken by people living on mainly the southern part of that island, and neighboring island Fårö. Of course, speakers of Modern Gutnish are also fluent in Swedish.
Last edited by Helsingborgaren; 11-21-2013 at 01:55 PM..
Afrikaans is not just spoken by white South Africans, that's a common misconception:
Afrikaans is essentially a Dutch dialect. It's quite different to standard Dutch but so are the many other Dutch dialects and accents spoken in The Netherlands, Flanders, Suriname and the Netherlands Antilles.
The Germanic languages seem more distinct to me than the Romance languages. As a fluent speaker of French (using it on a professional level now), I can understand quite a bit of the other Romance languages although I have never studied them. The grammar seems quite similar and the vocabulary tends to adhere to the common Latin roots. Germanic languages are more divided although they are still clearly part of the same linguistic family.
Here's my opinion of the other Germanic languages:
German
I have studied German for 6 years in secondary school and I grew up near the German border so I am quite familiar with the German language. In terms of vocabulary, it has the most in common with Dutch. High German has gone through several language shifts (unlike Dutch and English) but once you are aware of them, you can often guess the Dutch equivalent of a German word and vice versa. Take for example the d/t shift: trinken - drinken, tanzen - dansen, tun - doen, Tag - dag, Gott - God, tief - diep, gut - goed, etc. Or the k/ch shift: machen - maken, Milch - melk, ich - ik, kochen - koken, Buch - boek, etc. With a little imagination, I'm sure you can guess the English translation of these words as well. Spoiler: to drink, to dance, to do, day, God, deep, good; to make, milk, I, to cook, book. Due to these language shifts, there are very few words that are exactly the same in German and Dutch (or English) and it's not always easy to realise the common roots of words in spoken language.
In terms of grammar, German is quite different from the other West-Germanic languages (I'm not familiar with the North-Germanic languages in this regard). For example, Dutch and English do not distinguish between masculine and feminine nouns, they are both "de" or "the", whereas German has "der" for masculine and "die" for feminine nouns. Furthermore, the suffix for "the" in German changes depending on the context. Take the example of "the man" in German compared to Dutch and English:
E: the man
D: de man
G: der Mann
E: of the man
D: van de man
G: des Mannes
E: with the man
D: met de man
G: mit dem Mann
E: for the man
D: voor de man
G: für den Mann
I hope that was correct, my German is a little rusty These different suffixes are also used for the adjectives (e.g.: gut, guter, gutes, guten, gute, gutem, etc.) so you can imagine the impact it has on the language. Dutch and German generally have the same sentence structure. One difference I can think of is that German always puts the verb at the end of a subordinate clause whereas in Dutch the verb is usually put before the infinitive. For example:
E: I hope I will see him.
D: Ik hoop dat ik hem zal zien.
G: Ich hoffe, dass ich ihn sehen werde.
As for mutual intelligibility between Dutch and German, all I can say is that living in Maastricht, I'm surrounded by a lot of Germans (including my roommates) and I have never witnessed communication between Germans and Dutch that was not in English. I have tried to speak to my roommates in Dutch sometimes but they just look at me wide-eyed, lol.
English
On the surface, English seems quite different to the other Germanic languages due to its French influences but it's not hard to recognise the Germanic roots of many words (especially if you speak another Germanic language). I already gave some examples above. Of the major Germanic languages, English is closest to Dutch as they are both West-Germanic but did not go through the same language shifts that High German did. Dutch also has significantly more French influences than the other Germanic languages, although clearly not to the same extent as English. In terms of grammar, English is quite different from the other Germanic languages, especially when it comes to sentence structure. For example, a sentence like "I have read a book" would be formulated as "I have a book read" in other Germanic languages. Or the sentence I mentioned above, "I hope I will see him", would be formulated as "I hope that I him will see" in Dutch or "I hope that I him see will" in German. On the other hand, English does put the adjective ahead of the noun which is a typical Germanic trait ("a red car" vs. "a car red"). It's hard for me to guess how mutually intelligible English is to other Germanic languages because I don't really remember a time when I didn't speak a word of it. I do know that I once took an Italian friend (exchange student) to my grandma's house and my grandma somehow managed to ask her what she wanted to drink and understood her answer. This Italian girl also understood that I was talking about her house (in Dutch) to another Dutch friend although she didn't know the details. I suppose this goes back to the Germanic roots of many English words.
Low Saxon
This language (or dialect) is native to the region I was born and raised in, the very eastern part of Gelderland. It's mostly spoken by the older generation (such as my parents) but younger people still understand it. It seems like a middle ground between German and Dutch to me. If you go to the Dutch Wikipedia (Wikipedia.nl), the homepage is offered in standard Dutch, Frisian, Low Saxon and Limbourgish. The Low Saxon version looks like this: Wikipedie You be the judge.
North Germanic languages
For the most part, North Germanic languages sound totally unintelligible to me when spoken. I can recognise a word here and there but I don't really grasp the context. Written language is a lot easier but still they seem like very distinct languages to me. I can't tell the difference between Norwegian and Swedish.
While there are similarities in my experience a Dutch person & a German person can not converse for too long. Try going to the doctor.
Ich bin KRANK
versus
Ik ben ZIEK
or going to the bank & opening an account
that would be konto(german) versus bank rekening (dutch) etc
das fenster(german) het raam (dutch)
Trust me while there are similarities the differences are more vast than the similarities. You sure can get an IDEA what the convo is about thats just about it.
While there are similarities in my experience a Dutch person & a German person can not converse for too long. Try going to the doctor.
Ich bin KRANK
versus
Ik ben ZIEK
or going to the bank & opening an account
that would be konto(german) versus bank rekening (dutch) etc
das fenster(german) het raam (dutch)
Trust me while there are similarities the differences are more vast than the similarities. You sure can get an IDEA what the convo is about thats just about it.
I know that, which is why I said Germans and Dutch people here tend to talk to each other in English. The languages are not as close as many people think but that is true for Germanic languages in general. Still, out of all the other major Germanic languages, German and English are both closest to Dutch. That doesn't mean German or English speakers can understand (let alone converse in) Dutch without any problems but there are notable similarities between these languages. In the examples you mentioned, the word "ziek" has the same roots as the word "sick" and the word "bank" is the same in English and Dutch. The word "rekening" is a good example of the language shift (ch/k) I talked about earlier, because the German equivalent is Rechnung (although it's not always used in the same context) and the English word "reckon" comes from these roots as well.
Same in Swedish, we also use the word bank for bank, and "sjuk" for "sick".
Sick is also "syk" in Norwegian, and "syg" in Danish.
"Sick in the head" is "sjuk i huvudet" in Swedish, which is similar to Dutch "ziek in het hoofd", but alot more distant from German "krank im Kopf"
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These different suffixes are also used for the adjectives (e.g.: gut, guter, gutes, guten, gute, gutem, etc.) so you can imagine the impact it has on the language. Dutch and German generally have the same sentence structure. One difference I can think of is that German always puts the verb at the end of a subordinate clause whereas in Dutch the verb is usually put before the infinitive. For example: 
