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Going to university is not a rite of passage in countries that siphon low achievers off to vocational training. Going to university isn't something that can be taken for granted.
well its taken for granted in ireland , personally i like the german approach where something like 40% of high school graduates subsequently enroll in apprenticeships rather than go to university , learning a trade is something which germans place a lot of emphasis on
Your reaction is very typical of many -- when they hear CNN is leftist, they say "Nooo, can't be" and of course they default to the usual Alinsky's tactic of ridiculing the opponent. In lockstep.
To be honest, that's why I think Europe is on a suicidal mission -- because most people are "liberals," and for "liberals" facts don't matter, experience, rational thought are alien concepts. None of these matter. Only ideology matter.
They will not give up their multiculturalism, PC, ridiculing their opponents, and other stupidities.
Liberals live and will die by their ideology and dogma. That's why liberalism is a mental disorder.
Whence? From where? Where the money come to create this "new wealth"?
From the productivity and ideas of bright, hard working people who are willing to risk the security of a 9-5 job. They give that up to set out on their own because they believe in an idea, literally with everything they own on the line. This is not some crazy, half baked idea from a book. It is the American way and millions of people here have done it, including myself. I don't think you fully understand this aspect of the American middle and upper middle class. Many people fail in their endeavors too. Why should an individual who takes such risks, comes up with such ideas and puts it all into motion, give back their reward so that others who don't do it can live the same lifestyle? Once you strip away the reward, the risk taking stops and the job creation goes away. Small businesses in the United States employ over half of all private sector employees.
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Originally Posted by erasure
"Hiring new people" doesn't impress me; what interests me, is what kind of pay/conditions do they offer to those hired.
Small and medium sized businesses depend on talent to compete. If they don't offer competitive compensation with benefits, that talent will go elsewhere. Pretty simple stuff.
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Originally Posted by erasure
What "enormous personal sacrifices" - death of family members, or do they put their children up for adoption ( since they don't have time/money for them,) - what?
How about working weekends away from their families, staying up at night planning a project or dealing with the minutiae the government bureaucracy burdens them with. Maybe it would be working 70 or 80 hours a week because they can't afford more employees yet.
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Originally Posted by erasure
No, not exactly - you describe what it FEELS like to you, but not necessarily the REAL equivalent of things. See, if you "work hard" for your business yet the "taxpayer" votes for "confiscating 50% percent or more of that "fruit,"" you simply end up in the same spot where the majority of the voters are - working hard (or do you think they let you off the hook somewhere in McDonalds or in the factories, and only business owners are working hard in the US?) yet not allowing themselves too many extras, while shelling the earned money out for the bills. While YOU as a business owner hope to make it to Acapulco ( or wherever you like to go to get your perks) as the result of your hard labor, they basically shove you back in the world of mere mortals, where you work and pay your bills (and creditors in your case,) and take your Acapulco away. However taking Acapulco away is not the same as taking someone's last meal from refrigerator - see the difference?
First of all, my preference is Tuscany or Kyoto over Acapulco, if I feel the need to leave the country. Despite being a shallow, greedy, uncultured, uneducated Yankee, I have a deep appreciation for art, culture and history. Nature too, of which my own country offers me some of the very best in the world. Unlike Europe, our seas still have fish and our forests are still filled with trees and wildlife. We care about our tree, even beyond our own branch.
Again, why should somebody who risks it all end up in the same place as somebody who opts for the security of a regular job or even worse, to somebody who does not work at all despite being able bodied? What is their incentive to work harder and longer, to innovate, if other voters are going to help themselves to your efforts?
Nobody in this country is starving unless they have mental illness or suffer from severe addiction. Between charity based food pantries and government programs, "food insecurity" is a political tool and nothing else. We have lots of private charities like Meals on Wheels and others, in which people donate their own time and money to ensure that senior citizens are being fed. Our sense of community is much greater than you realize. Please don't use the starving babies argument in an effort to further your agenda of confiscating other people's wealth to make a better life for yourself. That argument holds no water.
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Originally Posted by erasure
You of course can help yourself in my refrigerator - with my son gone you have more chances to find something suitable there, while I am drinking mostly shakes in summer anyways, but I assure you, that overall your comparisons are not as good as you think.
Thank you for the invite, but other than a nice bottle of wine I don't ask much of my European friends and clients.
My comparisons are precise. There is zero difference between using the government and its henchmen to do the stealing and breaking a window to come in. It is taking what does not belong to you.
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Originally Posted by erasure
I am one of those people that sleep extremely well, because I don't endorse anything for long time already - I just sit and observe what's going on around me.
Intellectualize taxation for the purpose of maintaining those who won't (not can't) maintain themselves. Your sleep patterns will change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
See, you are confusing "earning" with "receiving." Quite a few working people in the US are really earning by their hard labor, but they are not RECEIVING what they deserve. And since they feel bigger and bigger gap between their INCOME and expenses (the price of basic stuff/services keeps on growing sure enough,) they are looking for the ways to close this gap. And since they can't reach those who are truly responsible for this situation ( those who ship capital elsewhere, where that capital brings more returns internationally, instead of keeping it IN the country and share the profits with his/her own population,) they'll vote to close the gap with the help of people like you (small/medium business owners.) So try to figure out where "immorality" begins here.
If people feel that they deserve more, they have the option of negotiating a better compensation package or switching jobs or going into business for themselves (bad choice if it's all going to be taxed away). They are only trapped by the limitations that they put on themselves.
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Originally Posted by erasure
But it is. Because not all "investors" are equal.
In life, nobody is equal and nothing is fair.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Yes, but they feel about it differently.
Yes we do. We believe on giving back to the community on a personal level rather than under a government mandate. Charity work is a huge part of American culture that it appears you know little about.
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Originally Posted by erasure
And probably people with the most extra cash as well ( well, USED to be.)
Despite the decline, we remain the most giving people.
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Originally Posted by erasure
No it's not a "higher road," it's more echoing the approach of the rich uncle to his impoverished relatives - today I'll generously pour my money in your coffers; this makes me feel good, but tomorrow I might feel unappreciated, I'll grumble a lot and you might go to bed without your supper. Europeans like to wear more sensible shoes and plan for everyone's tomorrow's supper in a more practical way. There is nothing repulsive about it.
Hogwash. It is about a sense of community, a cultural need to help those who are truly less fortunate. It has nothing to do with guilt or feeling unappreciated. Again, you show that you have a lack of understanding when it comes to the American view on community. Despite having lived in the UK and spending much time on the continent, I would never say that I have anything more than a cursory understanding of European culture beyond the UK.
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Originally Posted by erasure
As I've already said - people can be different, but American system is very materialistic and money-oriented in its core. And no, I don't think that Hollywood is talking about it too much))
I make no apologies. I am an unabashed capitalist and proud to be so.
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Originally Posted by erasure
is a good way to convey description of things related to Katrina, so I wouldn't even go there, because it exposed so much...how should I put it - "unpleasant reality?"
I'll touch on it briefly. Katrina was the product of people being overly dependent on the government for all of their needs. Rather than taking action in the face of a massive storm with much warning, they stayed put waiting for Mother Government to get them out. The government failed them, but more importantly they failed themselves. Katrina proved that too much government assistance turns people into drones.
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Originally Posted by erasure
The "end game is ugly" not because of democracy per se as your quoting implies, but because of someone's excessive greed. And this "someone" is not those voters depriving you of your Acapulco - I understand that much.
Here you go again with Acapulco. Greed is a good thing, it is a primal instinct that drives people to achieve. Compassion is also human, but it should be up to the individual to decide who they are compassionate toward. We were founded on freedom of the individual to make his or her own decisions over self-determination. Our forefathers were absolutely brilliant men.
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Originally Posted by erasure
Whatever it is - the endgame is ugly, yes.
Yes it is. We need to do what we can to avoid it.
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Originally Posted by erasure
It's not "strictly European," but the home work has been done by Europeans, and since they are better at doing home work, it doesn't make sense to call their ways "repulsive."
Somewhere somehow their wisdom has got lost at sea after all.
It did not get lost at all. See all of the above about community and stewardship of resources.
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Originally Posted by erasure
No it's not - anyone can be affected by it; the difference however is, this country functions on it unlike any other.
I don't see things in black and white, but I see them nevertheless.
Capitalism is wonderful.
Last edited by Return2FL; 07-24-2016 at 10:34 AM..
No, the US wouldn't be able to implement such system, because the whole PC house of cards would have started falling apart as the direct result of it. Such system of education is brutally honest - it's not about regurgitating simplistic material ad nauseum, and *developing the critical thinking skills* to no end. German system of education implies that you are either already born with those *critical thinking skills* or you are not. So it honestly screens your potential, no matter what your circumstances are, and prepares you for your future, taking these potentials in consideration.
Modern American society won't be able to accept such realistic approach for a number of reasons, but because of that it ends up with quite a few youngsters from lower-income families with no marketable skills, scrapping the bottom of the barrel, and ending up in homeless shelters, when they have no particular interest working in those glorious "fast-food places."
I don't think you know much about American vocational and education system. You describe a cucumber, while trying to explain the whole enchilada.
Secondly, do you also understand that America has over 160 million workers, of wildly various education and vocational backgrounds?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
No, I don't believe they are happy about their situation. But luckily, the last word, the ultimate decision in these matters are not up to them. See, Europe has a long tradition of giving birth to scholars, thinkers, philosophers, and big and strong "middle class" overall. So it's the public that have the last word on these matters in Europe, not "big money" as it is in the US.
What you are describing is tyranny. America was founded by Europeans who left Europe, its institutions, its drones, its societies, and its tyrannical mindset behind. Such mindset is still alive and kicking in Europe. Meanwhile, these smart Europeans who rejected tyranny, created the most innovative, cutting edge form of Govt -- US Constitution.
In the Declaration of Independence (from people who think like you) these Europeans-Americans wrote about unalienable rights, given by God, and NOT by MEN. One of the rights is Property and fruit of your Labor.
Public CAN'T vote on these unalienable rights. I can't vote on your right to bear arms. I can't vote on your right to religious liberty. I can't vote on your right to the fruits of your labor. And on on. And I surely don't want you to vote on mine.
Property rights are protected by our Constitution -- Takings clause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
So basically Europe is governed by other forces than money, and that's what the US would love to see destroyed and finished off after all.
You speak in very broad generalizations, and you create futile and wrong premises.
From the productivity and ideas of bright, hard working people who are willing to risk the security of a 9-5 job. They give that up to set out on their own because they believe in an idea, literally with everything they own on the line. This is not some crazy, half baked idea from a book. It is the American way and millions of people here have done it, including myself. I don't think you fully understand this aspect of the American middle and upper middle class. Many people fail in their endeavors too. Why should an individual who takes such risks, comes up with such ideas and puts it all into motion, give back their reward so that others who don't do it can live the same lifestyle? Once you strip away the reward, the risk taking stops and the job creation goes away. Small businesses in the United States employ over half of all private sector employees.
Small and medium sized businesses depend on talent to compete. If they don't offer competitive compensation with benefits, that talent will go elsewhere. Pretty simple stuff.
How about working weekends away from their families, staying up at night planning a project or dealing with the minutiae the government bureaucracy burdens them with. Maybe it would be working 70 or 80 hours a week because they can't afford more employees yet.
First of all, my preference is Tuscany or Kyoto over Acapulco, if I feel the need to leave the country. Despite being a shallow, greedy, uncultured, uneducated Yankee, I have a deep appreciation for art, culture and history. Nature too, of which my own country offers me some of the very best in the world. Unlike Europe, our seas still have fish and our forests are still filled with trees and wildlife. We care about our tree, even beyond our own branch.
Again, why should somebody who risks it all end up in the same place as somebody who opts for the security of a regular job or even worse, to somebody who does not work at all despite being able bodied? What is their incentive to work harder and longer, to innovate, if other voters are going to help themselves to your efforts?
Nobody in this country is starving unless they have mental illness or suffer from severe addiction. Between charity based food pantries and government programs, "food insecurity" is a political tool and nothing else. We have lots of private charities like Meals on Wheels and others, in which people donate their own time and money to ensure that senior citizens are being fed. Our sense of community is much greater than you realize. Please don't use the starving babies argument in an effort to further your agenda of confiscating other people's wealth to make a better life for yourself. That argument holds no water.
Thank you for the invite, but other than a nice bottle of wine I don't ask much of my European friends and clients.
My comparisons are precise. There is zero difference between using the government and its henchmen to do the stealing and breaking a window to come in. It is taking what does not belong to you.
Intellectualize taxation for the purpose of maintaining those who won't (not can't) maintain themselves. Your sleep patterns will change.
If people feel that they deserve more, they have the option of negotiating a better compensation package or switching jobs or going into business for themselves (bad choice if it's all going to be taxed away). They are only trapped by the limitations that they put on themselves.
In life, nobody is equal and nothing is fair.
Yes we do. We believe on giving back to the community on a personal level rather than under a government mandate. Charity work is a huge part of American culture that it appears you know little about.
Despite the decline, we remain the most giving people.
Hogwash. It is about a sense of community, a cultural need to help those who are truly less fortunate. It has nothing to do with guilt or feeling unappreciated. Again, you show that you have a lack of understanding when it comes to the American view on community. Despite having lived in the UK and spending much time on the continent, I would never say that I have anything more than a cursory understanding of European culture beyond the UK.
I make no apologies. I am an unabashed capitalist and proud to be so.
I'll touch on it briefly. Katrina was the product of people being overly dependent on the government for all of their needs. Rather than taking action in the face of a massive storm with much warning, they stayed put waiting for Mother Government to get them out. The government failed them, but more importantly they failed themselves. Katrina proved that too much government assistance turns people into drones.
Here you go again with Acapulco. Greed is a good thing, it is a primal instinct that drives people to achieve. Compassion is also human, but it should be up to the individual to decide who they are compassionate toward. We were founded on freedom of the individual to make his or her own decisions over self-determination. Our forefathers were absolutely brilliant men.
Yes it is. We need to do what we can to avoid it.
It did not get lost at all. See all of the above about community and stewardship of resources.
Capitalism is wonderful.
By all means, live in your cozy "Me-Me-Me" "Greed is good" world that you've created as your personal credo. As I've already said I am not going to lose my sleep over it, and I don't need to repeat myself, since I pretty much summed it all up in my previous post. The only thing that I might add is that your idea of "high road of charities" is good in your imagination only. Why? Because "communities that are "talking care of themselves" in America are a deceptive concept, since "communities" in America are all extremely different. Some are wealthy and some are dirt poor. While the wealthy communities MIGHT take care of few needy in the area, many of them can't. So across the line the "charity" idea in America does not work. As someone who worked in charity organization for many years, I can tell you that charity contributions come and go; but the NEED is steady. And that's why the government pitches in and to patches up the difference, in order to close the gap. That's why as I've said, Europeans are wise avoiding this "benevolent uncle" concept and I comment them for that.
P.S. One more thing; capitalism is not "wonderful" - it's a necessary evil, a temporary "order of things" one might say.
I don't think you know much about American vocational and education system. You describe a cucumber, while trying to explain the whole enchilada.
Secondly, do you also understand that America has over 160 million workers, of wildly various education and vocational backgrounds?
Cucumber is not even part of enchilada recipe, so instead of confusing those two, concentrate on a cucumber - i.e. the subject of K-12 education that I was specifically talking about, and ask yourself a question, why America can't implement the same system of education as in Germany. Once you'll come up with answers, you can proceed to "enchilada," which is a different dish all together.
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What you are describing is tyranny.
Oh I see - you like the tyranny the other way around; the tyranny of the rich - don't you?
In this case I'd say follow Gerard Depardieu and move to Russia. Russians excelled in this respect - those on top can enrich themselves with impunity, move money out of the country where no law can reach them; better else - they write the laws themselves that suit them better. Even more - they've got rid of such inconvenience as any political rivals, because politics might interfere with accumulation of wealth and god forbids even put at risk the proven schemes of acquiring it)))
This should be a perfect place for people like you - you just don't know what you are missing))
Quote:
As far as I remember,
In the Declaration of Independence (from people who think like you) these Europeans-Americans wrote about unalienable rights, given by God, and NOT by MEN. One of the rights is Property and fruit of your Labor.
Public CAN'T vote on these unalienable rights. I can't vote on your right to bear arms. I can't vote on your right to religious liberty. I can't vote on your right to the fruits of your labor. And on on. And I surely don't want you to vote on mine.
Property rights are protected by our Constitution -- Takings clause.
Mhm... And as far as I remember, the founding fathers were not just "Europeans," but specifically Europeans of English stock. And Great Britain as I've already mentioned somewhere before, is a conceptual country, known for the creation of laws and Industrial revolution. Therefore keep in mind that the English didn't jump up and moved as entire nation to America, with the last one of them turning off the lights in London, but sent PART of their people to found a new colony across the ocean, with the NEW CONCEPTS in mind. The rest of them stayed behind, following their previous concepts of societal development. You know why? Just in case, if the NEW concept won't entirely work out. And if it doesn't work out, guess what - God GIVES and God TAKES AWAY.
Quote:
You speak in very broad generalizations, and you create futile and wrong premises.
I do?
OK, let me be more specific here;
First move ( destructive for Europeans) were the infamous "Boys from Harvard" with their "Greed is Good" indoctrination for Kremlin, that destroyed for good future Russian economy, thus depriving Europeans from opportunities in their traditional Russian market.
Next move was American companies moving their know-how to China, flooding the world with Chinese-made garbage and making the skillful European labor to compete with that garbage produced by cheap Chinese labor.
"Globalization has brought us the following: employers are oriented on the income of their American colleagues , employees should focus on the Chinese incomes " Uwe Hück, chairman of the Porsche Group's Trade Union Committee.
The latest I see, is the destabilization of the Middle East with flood of refugees, pouring into Europe.
(Just a few observations.)
"By their fruit you will recognize them" to put it simply, not by the words of admiration of all those European statues and museums.
It has become clear in recent months that money, gold, paintings and other items that belonged to Holocaust victims were deposited in Swiss banks by the Nazis or by the victims themselves during Hitler's rule. The extent of these deposits and their ultimate fate remain unclear.
But the apparent failure of the Swiss banking community to give a clear accounting of its dealings with the Nazis has fueled an increasingly venomous exchange between Jewish groups and the Swiss authorities. The image of Switzerland -- comforting because neutral -- has taken on a darker hue. In the place of chocolates, cute little cottages and kindly burghers, another Switzerland has emerged, suspicious of Jewish ''blackmail'' and cabals, unsure what guilt, if any, to admit.
In the Swiss wake, Portugal and Sweden have also arrived in the historical dock. Their governments' apparent lack of interest in the source of the Nazi gold they received in exchange for sales to Germany of tungsten, wood, sardines and iron ore has been widely criticized. As in Switzerland, the suspicion has emerged that they profited from the Nazi conquest, and genocide, and that their neutrality was simply a cloak for connivance.
''Sweden was not neutral, Sweden was weak,'' said Arne Ruth, a Swedish journalist who has written a book on the Third Reich. ''Its sales of iron ore made an important contribution to the German effort. It allowed German troops and weaponry through its territory to Norway. In 1943, its government told the central bank to ignore suspicions that German gold Sweden received was looted. What is interesting is that all these facts, more or less known for some time, are commanding such attention now.''
It has become clear in recent months that money, gold, paintings and other items that belonged to Holocaust victims were deposited in Swiss banks by the Nazis or by the victims themselves during Hitler's rule. The extent of these deposits and their ultimate fate remain unclear.
But the apparent failure of the Swiss banking community to give a clear accounting of its dealings with the Nazis has fueled an increasingly venomous exchange between Jewish groups and the Swiss authorities. The image of Switzerland -- comforting because neutral -- has taken on a darker hue. In the place of chocolates, cute little cottages and kindly burghers, another Switzerland has emerged, suspicious of Jewish ''blackmail'' and cabals, unsure what guilt, if any, to admit.
In the Swiss wake, Portugal and Sweden have also arrived in the historical dock. Their governments' apparent lack of interest in the source of the Nazi gold they received in exchange for sales to Germany of tungsten, wood, sardines and iron ore has been widely criticized. As in Switzerland, the suspicion has emerged that they profited from the Nazi conquest, and genocide, and that their neutrality was simply a cloak for connivance.
''Sweden was not neutral, Sweden was weak,'' said Arne Ruth, a Swedish journalist who has written a book on the Third Reich. ''Its sales of iron ore made an important contribution to the German effort. It allowed German troops and weaponry through its territory to Norway. In 1943, its government told the central bank to ignore suspicions that German gold Sweden received was looted. What is interesting is that all these facts, more or less known for some time, are commanding such attention now.''
Russians knew for long time that it was not just "Germans" but quite few other European countries that were the participants in the whole plot back then.
By the way Swiss banks are the place where the last Tzars family kept its money too, from what I remember. Some form of their looting as well, money which has never been returned to Russia.
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( well, USED to be.)
is a good way to convey description of things related to Katrina, so I wouldn't even go there, because it exposed so much...how should I put it - "unpleasant reality?"
And as far as I remember, the founding fathers were not just "Europeans," but specifically Europeans of English stock. And Great Britain as I've already mentioned somewhere before, is a conceptual country, known for the creation of laws and Industrial revolution. Therefore keep in mind that the English didn't jump up and moved as entire nation to America, with the last one of them turning off the lights in London, but sent PART of their people to found a new colony across the ocean, with the NEW CONCEPTS in mind. The rest of them stayed behind, following their previous concepts of societal development. You know why? Just in case, if the NEW concept won't entirely work out. And if it doesn't work out, guess what - God GIVES and God TAKES AWAY. 
