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America (plus the rest of the English-speaking world) is so gigantic and busy that the rest of the world can seem like a blur. American television almost never talks about international affairs unless they directly affect America. They are too busy showing celebrity news, political scandals, or sports. IF you are an American interested in the rest of the world you have to make a special effort to learn.
Most Americans focus on Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean if they want to take an adventure. If they are "cultured" and want to see Europe they will go to the UK, France, Spain and Italy. Those are the countries we learn about in school and those are the languages we learn. They were also our allies during the Cold War so Americans have a warm & fuzzy feel for them.
Eastern Europe, especially Russia is that extra level far away. The flight is longer and more expensive too. Therefore, it is outside the grasp of most Americans. Just like Asia, Africa, and South America. Unless they have ethnic ancestry in those places. Australia gets a special status because they speak English (so they're "one of us") and have Kangaroos so we think they're cool.
When Russia IS shown in the American media, it's portrayed as simply "Putinland". No other explanation is needed. No exploration as to what their country's national interests or culture are about. It's our cartoon "bad-guy". We never know how safe it is to visit, either.
The alphabet is different, which immediately signals to Americans, "whoa this is like a different world." Way different from Western Europe.
Lastly, they don't have a large business presence in America. Germany and Japan became industrial powerhouses after we defeated them. Because of that, Americans grow up with Nintendo and BMW plus many more. Russia doesn't have any known brands except Lukoil.
Best ( and detailed) explanation from American point of view ( including the kangaroos part.)
P.S. And while we are at that, should we have a look at our *Aryan Ukrainians* ( because this is what this "new democratic Ukrainian state" is all about of course,) sooo.... shall we look at what they originally looked like ( before they were accepted in the Russian Empire) - a picture worth thousand words, particularly coming from such genius as Russian painter Ilya Repin;
That’s like saying scratch an American and you will find a native, at least it would seem that way with claims made by Elizabeth Waren. But everyone laughs at those people for counting their exact Native American percentage because it so infinitesimal that it’s of no consequence.
That being said I might have Tatar ancestory because my Grandpa’s mom knew a lot of Crimean Tatar recipes and apparently ran in their social circles, but when I ask my Grandpa about her origin he just says she was an average Ukrainian who moved to Crimea. (Or maybe it was her parents from Ukraine?) So I don’t know if I do have Tatar blood, but we do eat their food. Some of the food my family makes are, Chiburekki, Köbete and Shurpa.
That’s like saying scratch an American and you will find a native, at least it would seem that way with claims made by Elizabeth Waren. But everyone laughs at those people for counting their exact Native American percentage because it so infinitesimal that it’s of no consequence.
That being said I might have Tatar ancestory because my Grandpa’s mom knew a lot of Crimean Tatar recipes and apparently ran in their social circles, but when I ask my Grandpa about her origin he just says she was an average Ukrainian who moved to Crimea. (Or maybe it was her parents from Ukraine?) So I don’t know if I do have Tatar blood, but we do eat their food. Some of the food my family makes are, Chiburekki, Köbete and Shurpa.
Whaa???
Your folks know how to fix chebureki?!
I'd kill for that - to feast on them again I mean.
We've had cheburechnaya right around the corner ( downtown Moscow) where I lived in my childhood, and it was one of the best things ever during cold weather.
Shurpa is UZBEK dish by the way, ( not Tatar) so do you have Uzbek ancestors by any chance too?
(Have no idea what that third dish is, you need to describe it to me.
Now when I think about it, something of this kind happened to me recently - a new discovery sorta. Let's say I have been *discovered* by the "Russian Germans" recently ( where I live.)
I knew that THEORETICALLY such thing existed back in... whatever times, when Katherine the Great ( or whoever it was) invited Germans to settle in Russia, but I thought they were long gone/assimilated whatever. ( The rest were impostors))
But now I discovered that many of them actually immigrated to the US, after whatever next Russian tzar stripped them of their privileges. And I discovered that their colonies were not only along the Volga river, but in Moldavia ( then Bessarabia) and Ukraine. They lived there generation after generation, keeping their language/church and traditions, and then they moved to...to.. North Dakota I believe. They still thought of "Russland" as their motherland, which surprised me to no end, not less than what I saw on their videos. I mean the older generation looked like Russians/Ukrainians working in the fields ( here in the US already.)
And when they were describing their traditional cuisine made "back home," - I swear to you I've recognized right away one of the ethnic MOLDAVIAN dishes by the sound of it. Not to mention all those jars with pickled cucumbers/tomatoes/mushrooms/ and whatever else you usually see in Russian/Ukrainian households.
When they've mentioned "kompotte" ( which in case you don't know is an essential Russian drink) on top of everything else, I already didn't know WHAT to say.
Because they were undeniably Germans ( you could hear their language, you could see the way they were dancing, the way they were dressed during their leisure time, - heck, they looked like Germans too,) and yet it was obvious to me that they were an inseparable part of that whole Moldavia/Ukraine scene back in the day.
So what I am thinking here.. I am thinking that food is not always that indicative of who/what people are.
Particularly in such diverse place as Russia.
P.S. To be honest - I have no idea who/what "Crimean Tatars" are, and how they are related to your "normal Tatars" in Moscow, since they look so different, if you ask me.
What Caucasus ( Armenians et al) has got to do with ethnic Russians?
The population of the Russian Federation is 141 million or about it, and it's comprised of over 186 ethnic groups; Tatars being just one of them ( 5 million people.)
As long as they could conceal it, and that would mean that they didn't look anything typical "Tatar" and could pass for either ethnic Russians or other ethnic groups ( which is not all that easy.) But then that means they were not typical Tatars ( of whatever people understand under this ethnicity.) I am not a big specialist of the looks of this particular group of people, since their look vary, but true ETHNIC RUSSIANS usually can tell.
I can't blame Russians for that; it's an imprint coming from the depth of history, but that doesn't mean that on a personal level it's all about "hatred and prejudice."
The best way I can describe it is what I witnessed once on a Facebook: I think it happened back in 2011, when Moscow was swamped with anti-governmental protests ( or may be it were more recent events - I just don't remember off top.) The point is, a lot of people were coming to these protests from the different parts of the Russian Federation and they were looking for place to stay in Moscow, as in they were hoping to lodge in the houses/apartments of the locals. ( I guess that the organizers of these events provided such opportunity.) And so I could see on that particular page; "There are three of us coming from Yaroslavl, looking for hosts, we can stay in different apartments." Or "there are two of us, coming from Novgorod, can we find someone to host us, such and such Moscow district is preferred?"
And here comes this; " I am coming alone, looking for a place to stay. Nationalists shouldn't be bothered with offers, since I am a Tatar."
So there you have it. That's the dynamics of relations.
( Did he get any offers from the Moscovites? Yes, in a couple of minutes the responses came "No problem, we'll take you.")
Ruth... Russians AS A RULE know what/who their "beloved grand-parents" are. Like me, they are aware of their admixtures. And if the "beloved grandparent" could conceal his/her Tatar origin, it means that he/she wasn't that much a "Tatar" anyways)))
This would be correct; I am sure plenty of ethnic Russians have some admixture down in their family line be that Chuvash or Ingrians or Germans/Scandinavians ( like I suspect some of my "beloved grand parents" have,) and the list goes on and on.
But as long as it's a a couple of some distant ancestors, it doesn't change much; they remain "ethnic Russians." It only enriches their genetic material and keeps them going; otherwise ethnic Russians would be dying out with the same speed as the rest of Europeans.
So going back to your
"But they hate their Tatar roots! They desperately deny aspects of their Asian heritage, and cling to the bit of Russia that's technically in Europe, and therefore "modern". The Asian 3/4 of the land mass is "backward"." -
they are denying it for a reason. Because, as we've established their "Tatar roots" are a myth.
If part of Russians do indeed have the admixture of those 180 ethnic groups that live on the territory of the Russian Federation ( or used to live on the territory of the Russian Empire,) why is it exactly they have to celebrate specifically their "Tatar roots" ?
Well, in that particular statement, that you quoted at the end, I was speaking more of Russia as a nation. Russians try to deny their country's Asian side, which is roughly 3/4 of its land mass. I'm not sure if the person I was responding to meant it that way, or if he meant "Tatar roots" on an individual level, as if every Russian has some Tatar admixture. But I admit that statement was a bit ambiguous.
However, interestingly enough. I know an American woman who has Czech heritage on her mother's side. She said when her mother showed her old family photos of earlier generations, the women had Asian-looking eyes. She said they looked really different, though her mother's appearance doesn't reflect anything like that.
But there were so many hordes migrating west out of Asia, through the depths of Russia's history, that we can't assume any Asiatic admixture is from the Tatars or Mongols. There were Pechenegs, Huns, and one thing or another., at various times.
Oh, and you ask, why should they celebrate their "Tatar roots" or their country's mixed heritage? To celebrate diversity, and to embrace reality. But this is easier said than done, of course.
Well, in that particular statement, that you quoted at the end, I was speaking more of Russia as a nation. Russians try to deny their country's Asian side, which is roughly 3/4 of its land mass. I'm not sure if the person I was responding to meant it that way, or if he meant "Tatar roots" on an individual level, as if every Russian has some Tatar admixture. But I admit that statement was a bit ambiguous.
No Ruth, they don't deny THAT. What they deny ( and rightfully so,) is that the roots of ethnic Russians are the same as Asian/Tatar roots. They are clearly not ( it's a a myth as I've already stated before.)
Just because back in early history Russians were subjugated by Tatars, doesn't mean that from that point on, they became somehow "one and the same thing."
They never were and they still are not. ( That is if we speak about your regular ethnic Russians.)
When it comes to all the lands in Asian part of the country, ( and ethnic groups that live there,) there is no unanimous opinion among Russians whether it's a good or bad thing.
SOME Russians think that it's the uniqueness of their country - all this tapestry of ethnic groups and preserved cultures, and it's a positive thing, some think that it's a disaster waiting to happen ( particularly when it comes to Islamic population, which Tatars are part of.)
It's the same thing when it comes to the opinions of ethnic population; some genuinely like Russians and their culture and they want to be part of the country where Russians are the dominant group, that glues all the lands and ethnicites together, some consider themselves to be colonized by Russians ( which is true up to a certain degree. It can't be any other way, when one group is more developed/advanced comparably to another.)
Just to touch on the current conflict with Ukrainians, these funny people think that since their neck of the woods doesn't have any Asian part, it means they are very different from Russians, and they seethe with indignation, that for so long they were part of the country, which included so many backwards Asians. They want no part of it, but truth to be told, part of ethnic Russians share the same sentiment. (Not all of course, obviously.)
By the way Balts were sharing the same sentiment - how dare Russians keep them in the same country where *backward Asians* are big part of.
Quote:
However, interestingly enough. I know an American woman who has Czech heritage on her mother's side. She said when her mother showed her old family photos of earlier generations, the women had Asian-looking eyes. She said they looked really different, though her mother's appearance doesn't reflect anything like that.
But there were so many hordes migrating west out of Asia, through the depths of Russia's history, that we can't assume any Asiatic admixture is from the Tatars or Mongols. There were Pechenegs, Huns, and one thing or another., at various times.
When you mention something like "Pechenegs" - that brings to my mind right away Kievan Russia, because Pechenegs were mentioned back in 10th-11 century, as one of those people with whom early Russians were either fighting, or making unions to fight someone else. So no, a distinctly different group of people.
The Huns - that goes all the way back to 452 or so ( when they invaded Europe?) and at that point in time Russians ( as a nation) were simply nowhere around. It's a different part of history; it's the ancient history, that Russians were simply not part of. ( Or may be they were somehow, being known as Scythians at that time, but who knows - those are only theories.)
Quote:
Oh, and you ask, why should they celebrate their "Tatar roots" or their country's mixed heritage? To celebrate diversity, and to embrace reality. But this is easier said than done, of course.
As I've said - some like it and celebrate it, some don't, because they see it as a problem rather than strength.
I'd kill for that - to feast on them again I mean.
We've had cheburechnaya right around the corner ( downtown Moscow) where I lived in my childhood, and it was one of the best things ever during cold weather.
Shurpa is UZBEK dish by the way, ( not Tatar) so do you have Uzbek ancestors by any chance too?
(Have no idea what that third dish is, you need to describe it to me.
So what I am thinking here.. I am thinking that food is not always that indicative of who/what people are.
Particularly in such diverse place as Russia.
P.S. To be honest - I have no idea who/what "Crimean Tatars" are, and how they are related to your "normal Tatars" in Moscow, since they look so different, if you ask me.
Köbete, a traditional pie with a rice-and-chicken filling baked between two layers of dough. Served as a main course, köbete can be made with alternative fillings, such as rice and meat, meat with potatoes and onions, or even potatoes and cheese.
My family stuffs it with potatoes rather than rice. When I was a kid I just thought it was normal Russian food, but then one day my mom brought some to church and nobody else knew what it was and my mom had to explain to everyone what it was. Sadly most people didn’t feel adventurous enough to eat it and stuck with sandwiches. But it’s very good!! Also after that I found out a lot of “Russian” food isn’t even Russian lol, I guess it would be described as Soviet food.
But I agree about the food/ethnic thing. Right now my family makes a lot of different kinds of food, American, Mexican, Asian, etc. it doesn’t mean that all of sudden I’m all those things, it’s just a reflection of my surroundings.
America (plus the rest of the English-speaking world) is so gigantic and busy that the rest of the world can seem like a blur. American television almost never talks about international affairs unless they directly affect America. They are too busy showing celebrity news, political scandals, or sports. IF you are an American interested in the rest of the world you have to make a special effort to learn.
Most Americans focus on Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean if they want to take an adventure. If they are "cultured" and want to see Europe they will go to the UK, France, Spain and Italy. Those are the countries we learn about in school and those are the languages we learn. They were also our allies during the Cold War so Americans have a warm & fuzzy feel for them.
Eastern Europe, especially Russia is that extra level far away. The flight is longer and more expensive too. Therefore, it is outside the grasp of most Americans. Just like Asia, Africa, and South America. Unless they have ethnic ancestry in those places. Australia gets a special status because they speak English (so they're "one of us") and have Kangaroos so we think they're cool.
When Russia IS shown in the American media, it's portrayed as simply "Putinland". No other explanation is needed. No exploration as to what their country's national interests or culture are about. It's our cartoon "bad-guy". We never know how safe it is to visit, either.
The alphabet is different, which immediately signals to Americans, "whoa this is like a different world." Way different from Western Europe.
Lastly, they don't have a large business presence in America. Germany and Japan became industrial powerhouses after we defeated them. Because of that, Americans grow up with Nintendo and BMW plus many more. Russia doesn't have any known brands except Lukoil.
No Ruth, they don't deny THAT. What they deny ( and rightfully so,) is that the roots of ethnic Russians are the same as Asian/Tatar roots. They are clearly not ( it's a a myth as I've already stated before.)
Just because back in early history Russians were subjugated by Tatars, doesn't mean that from that point on, they became somehow "one and the same thing."
They never were and they still are not. ( That is if we speak about your regular ethnic Russians.)
When it comes to all the lands in Asian part of the country, ( and ethnic groups that live there,) there is no unanimous opinion among Russians whether it's a good or bad thing.
SOME Russians think that it's the uniqueness of their country - all this tapestry of ethnic groups and preserved cultures, and it's a positive thing, some think that it's a disaster waiting to happen ( particularly when it comes to Islamic population, which Tatars are part of.)
It's the same thing when it comes to the opinions of ethnic population; some genuinely like Russians and their culture and they want to be part of the country where Russians are the dominant group, that glues all the lands and ethnicites together, some consider themselves to be colonized by Russians ( which is true up to a certain degree. It can't be any other way, when one group is more developed/advanced comparably to another.)
Just to touch on the current conflict with Ukrainians, these funny people think that since their neck of the woods doesn't have any Asian part, it means they are very different from Russians, and they seethe with indignation, that for so long they were part of the country, which included so many backwards Asians. They want no part of it, but truth to be told, part of ethnic Russians share the same sentiment. (Not all of course, obviously.)
By the way Balts were sharing the same sentiment - how dare Russians keep them in the same country where *backward Asians* are big part of.
When you mention something like "Pechenegs" - that brings to my mind right away Kievan Russia, because Pechenegs were mentioned back in 10th-11 century, as one of those people with whom early Russians were either fighting, or making unions to fight someone else. So no, a distinctly different group of people.
The Huns - that goes all the way back to 452 or so ( when they invaded Europe?) and at that point in time Russians ( as a nation) were simply nowhere around. It's a different part of history; it's the ancient history, that Russians were simply not part of. ( Or may be they were somehow, being known as Scythians at that time, but who knows - those are only theories.)
As I've said - some like it and celebrate it, some don't, because they see it as a problem rather than strength.
You missed my point about various hordes sweeping through Russian or East Slavic territory before the Mongols. I was only noting, that the Mongol-Tatar invasion wasn't the first such invasion from the East, Russian history is full of such events.
And some of those people settled down, and eventually became nationalities within Russia, like the Chuvash, Bashkirs, and others. Though any admixture over the eons was far less than the mythology would have us believe, some percentage of Slavs has been mixing with Eastern peoples, most of them Turkic, since long before, as well as after, the Mongols. But overall, I think we can chalk this myth up to general odd stereotypes that have a small grain of truth in them, like what people believe about the Finns. Just because there may be a grain or two of DNA from the east, doesn't make the Finns (of Finland) some kind of exotic hybrid Euro-Asiatic people.
However, if you want to discuss DNA, the largest influence on Russians is Scythic, or Indo-Iranian.
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( because this is what this "new democratic Ukrainian state" is all about of course,) sooo.... shall we look at what they originally looked like ( before they were accepted in the Russian Empire) - a picture worth thousand words, particularly coming from such genius as Russian painter
