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I am replying and quoting you in reverse order because I am actually going to try to end on a good note. I recall already citing (on this thread) some of your inputs as very sound and actually do think you are a good voice for crossfit and would rather maintain some degree of mutual respect (insomuch as it can exist between anonymous forum members).
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Originally Posted by wcu25rs
i could ask the same questions.
You could, but it would be a non-starter. If someone were to tell me they had a bad experience with a more conventional trainer I would not assume they were making it up the way you've done.
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Originally Posted by wcu25rs
I'm aware mine is anecdotal as well, but I probably have a larger sample size, that's all. What I'm saying is that a very small percentage of trainers would give you advice that bad. That's why I said it sounded a bit exaggerated for the sake of making a point.
I recognize that. I also believe to a great extent that guys like you who argue the bad trainers are a minority may indeed be right. But try to see it from where I am sitting. If I've met 5 crossfit coaches and 4 of them were spouting off bad advice, how am I to come to any other conclusion before adjusting for the recognition that my observations are limited? Even adjusting for that, I am balancing a benefit of the doubt assumption with actual observations. My skepticism is well deserved, especially since I do try to temper it with some critical thought.
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Originally Posted by wcu25rs
your examples just sounded exaggerated and generic, that's all. If you'll look back in this thread in one of my original posts, I talk about a few flaws I find in CF. I'm not a blind CF follower like some are. I do it because I enjoy and it's been effective for me and what I do(im a structural and wildland firefighter that has a strong emotional attachment to my fellow firefighters and station, way more than anything CF related....guess that's cultish too!), plain and simple. But there are some things about it that I am critical of. So implying that I refuse to acknowledge flaws, when Ive plainly stated otherwise in this thread is ignorant. Put simply, the rate of bad trainers in CF is no higher than the rate at Olympic lifting gyms, powerlifting gyms, Golds Gym, LA fitness, and the list goes on.
Of course they do. The more recent ones are roughly 2 years old. Like I said, I now tune out any crossfitter who tries to talk to me while I'm working out and have done so for a few years now. Still, a statement like, "Form is not as important as time." is a general statement, but one I've heard from a crossfit coach. The example I gave about pullups is one I've heard from a couple crossfit coaches I've met in person, as well as seen many try to explain on crossfit videos. So while they may seem general, they are no less real.
Perhaps it was unfair to say you refuse to acknowledge flaws. Then again, when you asked for examples, despite them being general you wrote them off as "made up." I'm not necessarily going to readily recall everything you've said on this thread, so something you posted several days ago and is a few pages back in this conversation do not necessarily carry the weight or influence replies the way something you say more recently does.
Ultimately I do believe you are one of the better voices for crossfit, at least around here. That doesn't mean I'll be convinced by anything you say, but I can at least appreciate the way you support your positions.
Lol, Rich Froning, he was an athlete before he ever even stepped foot inside a Crossfit gym. That is the thing about numerous of these elite Crossfit types, they were doing other things before Crossfit, they came into Crossfit already in great shape and strong. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it gives the ill-informed that they got this way from Crossift alone, when in fact they came in already in great shape and are now training specifically for the Crossfit games. This is not unique to Crossfit, but it seems some Crossfit participants like purposely overlook or turn a blind eye to this fact.
Yep, almost all of the elite CrossFitters, both men and women, were excellent athletes prior to starting CrossFit. That is not a surprise, nor should it be.
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Originally Posted by boxus
Also, for elite people like Rich, he is doing his own programming, as is probably every competitive Crossfit Games participant. In no way are these people representitve of the generic Crossfit gym and its members. Again, not unique to Crossfit as champion powerlifters sure as hell are not doing generic routines everyone else is, they have their own custom programs. This is the same in every sport, you have the generic routines, then you have the competitors who have their own custom programming.
Yes, Rich does his own programming. I think Camille has her husband Dave Lipson do her programming. Lots of games athletes hire coaches to do their programming. What's your point?
I never claimed the elite of ANY sport represented the generic membership of ANY sport. If they did, they wouldn't be elite, right?
...Edit: also your anecdotal evidence does not constitute data; kipping pull-ups and slap tears are positively correlated and there is overwhelming data to show this. Correlation does not = causation, however, it is a risky maneuver when proper strength and form are lacking. Add this on top of being tired and you have a recipe for pain, which is ridiculous since most people want to be healthy and move well
I never said you couldn't get slap tears and other shoulder injuries from doing kipping/butterfly pull-ups. I was addressing a post that made it sound like a statistical certainty you WOULD get injured if you did them. Yes, if you try to do kipping pull-ups before your strong/stable enough, you are hugely increasing your risk for injury. The gyms that I go to make sure that you can do at least 10 dead-hang pull-ups before they allow you to start working on kipping pull-ups.
Funny, I know something like 75-100 people that regularly CrossFit, just regular people trying to get in/stay in shape, not competitors - none of them have been injured doing CrossFit in any way. Not high rep Oly lifts for time, not kipping pull-ups, not pistol squats or kettle bell swings. Nada.
IMO Crossfit and P90x are basically the same sort of fitness program. Like a "conditioning" program you do at basic training or summer football camp.
At least P90x is more honest in advertising that it's just a way to lose some fat so you look good at the beach. Crossfit promotes a cult like mentality filled with guys like Der Vogel and their ludicrious claims. It's basically a fitness MLM.
Congratulations on your opinion.
Your opinion doesn't match up to my experiences. I've been to multiple gyms, across multiple states and I have yet to meet a single person in real life that acts/talks like Der Vogel.
<shrug>
I've never proselytized to anyone about CrossFit or tried to talk anyone into trying it. No one has ever proselytized to me or tried to convince me to do CrossFit. My experience is that it is nothing like MLM.
I've been encouraged by several crossfit coaches to use bad form in the interest of being able to do the exercises faster. So I guess it's hit and miss.
Weird. I've never had one coach encourage me in that way. If anything, people in the classes I've been in get called out during the workout for bad form - "keep your knees out", "keep your chest up", "stay in your heels", "get your head through", etc.
It is absolutely hit and miss, there are good and bad affiliates out there without question. In my experience there are FAR more good affiliates than bad - and I've been to more CF gyms that most folks.
Well, to be fair, your claims are very different. Iknowftbll is claiming that he has seen bad form being promoted. You are saying that you have seen an emphasis on good form, and further, that you question his observations. It is you who is suggesting that a certain practice (promoting bad form) doesn't exist in any significance, not him. As I'm sure you know, claiming some sort of universal negative is very difficult, if not impossible, to do. You don't have to overlook your own observations to also accept his. In other words, even if you have seen countless examples of good form being taught, that doesn't imply that he hasn't witnessed the opposite. He is only making a claim about what he's seen, whereas you are making a claim about what sort of teaching exists in crossfit generally.
Yep, almost all of the elite CrossFitters, both men and women, were excellent athletes prior to starting CrossFit. That is not a surprise, nor should it be.
Yes, Rich does his own programming. I think Camille has her husband Dave Lipson do her programming. Lots of games athletes hire coaches to do their programming. What's your point?
I never claimed the elite of ANY sport represented the generic membership of ANY sport. If they did, they wouldn't be elite, right?
You posted a picture of Rich and other elite CFers as evidence that CF is a good way to get jacked. Boxus pointing out that those guys were all elite athletes before CF is relevant because it points out the possibility that those guys look like that independently of CF.
The point of stating that those guys follow their own programming, I'm assuming, is that it further weakens the connection of the physique of Rich Fronning with the goal an average Joe might have of getting jacked. Pointing to Rich and saying "See, you can get jacked on CF!" doesn't hold water if Rich doesn't do the same type of CF that someone on the street would do in a regular "box."
You posted a picture of Rich and other elite CFers as evidence that CF is a good way to get jacked. Boxus pointing out that those guys were all elite athletes before CF is relevant because it points out the possibility that those guys look like that independently of CF.
No I posted that picture in response to an idiotic claim that CF won't build muscle. I posted a picture of Froning and Khalipa because it was easy to find. Here's a picture of one of the co-owners of the CF gym that I belong to here in Charlotte. He's not elite, he didn't make Regionals last year, he's a normal guy with a 9-5 job that does CF on the side. Is that more acceptable?
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Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost
The point of stating that those guys follow their own programming, I'm assuming, is that it further weakens the connection of the physique of Rich Fronning with the goal an average Joe might have of getting jacked. Pointing to Rich and saying "See, you can get jacked on CF!" doesn't hold water if Rich doesn't do the same type of CF that someone on the street would do in a regular "box."
Do you know what type of programming Froning, or any of the other Games competitors, follows?
No I posted that picture in response to an idiotic claim that CF won't build muscle. I posted a picture of Froning and Khalipa because it was easy to find. Here's a picture of one of the co-owners of the CF gym that I belong to here in Charlotte. He's not elite, he didn't make Regionals last year, he's a normal guy with a 9-5 job that does CF on the side. Is that more acceptable?
Do you not understand the objections to you using a picture of Froning to support your argument that crossfit is an effective way to grow muscle? It's like saying "Kansas is beautiful" then using a picture of the Big Sur Coast to support your point because "it's easy to find."
No I posted that picture in response to an idiotic claim that CF won't build muscle. I posted a picture of Froning and Khalipa because it was easy to find. Here's a picture of one of the co-owners of the CF gym that I belong to here in Charlotte. He's not elite, he didn't make Regionals last year, he's a normal guy with a 9-5 job that does CF on the side. Is that more acceptable?
Sure, but I was only clarifying that the comment regarding Rich being an elite athlete prior to CF was actually relevant.
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Originally Posted by hooligan
Do you know what type of programming Froning, or any of the other Games competitors, follows?
Nope -- no idea. But again, I was only clarifying that the comment that they follow their own program was relevant.
I think you're getting mixed up in the conversation here. You pointed to the picture of Rich as evidence that CF is a good way to build muscle. It was pointed out that he already had muscle before CF, and that he doesn't do the same type of CF that a person on the street would. You then acted like those were obvious and irrelevant concerns, but they were not.
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