Southlake vs. Keller (Fort Worth, Plano, Grapevine: 2015, home, transfer)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think the area was slow to take off ... there was lot of construction on Hwy 26 and crossing over was difficult for while
and it doesn't offer the number of stores like Southlake Town Center--so it doesn't seem as much of a destination location.
Parking is more difficult as well to my way of thinking...
and the stores that are there are not brand name really--well, Milwaukee Joe's is franchise but others are specialty stores if I remember--
I think it is expensive--more so on the whole than Town Center--and there is just not reason for me to go there--except when friend wants to eat at Rugierrie's
The powers that be at the time rushed into that development w/o really considering all optiond. Just like in Hurst when the strip center across the freeway from the mall was put in...
initially it had some good stores and people would shop there but with the Mall expansion behind it that area pretty much dried up--Barnes and Nobel moved and the other stores over time pretty much dried up. I am surprised Golfsmith is still there but guess it has enough of a specialty and Dick's doesn't really cover that need that it can survive...but location is not really the best...maybe they actually bought vs leased thinking it had value into the future for resale...
Same sitaution IMO to Colleyville's---
I see the Town Center location as strangled basically by location--
Maybe now that the strip center that languished so long with Ace and the Antique Mall has gotten new juice, it will help feed into Town Center--but you have to cross traffic and it is not that easy to do...
I could be wrong, but I think that shopping center is technically North Richland Hills on that side of the freeway. They probably were just trying to milk the mall's traffic when they built it. In their defense, I don't think they foresaw a situation where SIMON and Hurst would knock down an entire neighborhood of homes on the other side of the mall to expand, causing all of those stores in the shopping center to relocate there. With that and North Hills Mall, poor NRH has had some bad luck in head-to-head retail battles with Hurst.
It really is an unsightly shopping center now just sitting empty. I wish they would tear it down or re-purpose it. It does look like they're finally turning that old Bennigans into a Sushi Axiom after the "coming soon" sign has been there for nearly four years.
You're correct that they haven't, but Colleyville still feels a lot different retail wise than it did a decade and a half ago considering the size and scope of the town. That entire shopping center with Studio Movie Grill, Market Street, Lifetime Fitness has only existed for 11 years and it's grown since it was initially constructed. The Whole Foods shopping center on Glade and 26 is massively upgraded to what was there 15 years ago. The "town center" seems to be a bit of a bust as far as attracting and retaining retail/restaurants, but everything around it is booming.
Good points. I've been here for under 5 years and so haven't seen the takeoff in retail overall (other than the general observation that all of DFW is booming.
I get your point re: Keller, but again, as a relo most DFW suburbs seem to blend together into Generica. This is largely because of how recent most of the development is. When a differentiating factor between areas is "development built 5 years ago" and "development built 15 years ago"...well, that would be absurd in an older Midwestern or Northeastern city. I also find Frisco and Plano to be frighteningly similar, even given that Frisco in many ways is Plano about 15 years ago.
That said, Colleyville and Grapevine do have different "feels" than Southlake in at least some parts and on the other side of town Richardson (being older) is a major exception to the "all those suburbs are alike" rule.
My daughter used to play soccer in Keller although we lived in Bedford--
I can't tell you how much that area has changed in 25 years--
Southlake as well and Grapevine
Colleyville has contained its development along Hwy 26 so that is visible to most drivers but the town itself has gone from rural/ag to SFR development and the i acre McMansions...
Bedford is case in point--
when Bell Helicopter began its surge after WWII, south Hurst and Bedford and Arlington were likely residences but there was not much other retail commercial driving that development.
Then in the late 70s early 80s w/DFW creation the growth took off.
Bedford became very desireable because of the excellence of the school district in particular.
At that time Larry Cole (former Cowboy) was developing Tara on Cheek Sparger...
he was able to get state to rezone that area for HEB ISD vs GCISD which at that time was considered backward--definitely not a selling point.
That was mistake in long-term planning because of the reversal in desireability of the ISDs since Tara was developed...
Bell is still a great school but demographics of the area have changed significantly--
it is no longer a white-collar, middle-class clientel the school serves...
Not that Grapevine HS doesn't have lower socio-economic students but GCISD is definitely higher ranked in people's minds than HEB ISD...
Bedford itself had very rapacious city council and mayor during the 80s--growth was rampant and apartments were approved that in hind sight were likely overbuilt....when the courts rules that apartments could not restrict renters to only adults vs famlies w/kids...Bedford took a hit--
what had been a fairly yuppie environment turned into burden for the ISD because of lower income families with multiple kids or single parents w/kids looking for better schools outside FTW/Irving...
Bedford used up its available land too quickly when it would have been much better off for long term growth of the town and tax base if it had been prepared to wait and not develop every square inch by 1990...
there have been some infill developments and retail along the freeway has been fairly strong but you will never see the type of McMansion construction like Colleyville has because lots in Bedford are subdivision lots and won't ever be worth teardown construction pricing except in very unusual circumstances...
Pity anyone in Bedford who has house fire and home is totaled--
it would be SO expensive to rebuilt from scratch-- because most homeowners' insurance covers valuation replacement--not new build replacement
Yes, I am interested in where others are looking for school ratings as well.
We are Keller residents and actively looking at Southlake since we spend all of our free time/money there and schools are so good. The homes we have seen at the $500k range are quite disappointing and we will likely be priced out by the spring.
That said, we started looking at Keller again. We are moving because our current home does not have a yard and we have a child who NEEDS the space to run at 6:30am!
What about the neighborhoods feeding into Shady Grove, Indian Springs and South Keller? Homes are decent but school reputations (I have heard) are HORRENDOUS! Any help is appreciated.
Yes, I am interested in where others are looking for school ratings as well.
We are Keller residents and actively looking at Southlake since we spend all of our free time/money there and schools are so good. The homes we have seen at the $500k range are quite disappointing and we will likely be priced out by the spring.
That said, we started looking at Keller again. We are moving because our current home does not have a yard and we have a child who NEEDS the space to run at 6:30am!
What about the neighborhoods feeding into Shady Grove, Indian Springs and South Keller? Homes are decent but school reputations (I have heard) are HORRENDOUS! Any help is appreciated.
I generally look at SAT scores (and to a lesser extent participation rates, by which I mean "what percentage of kids are taking the SAT) to get a gauge of the performance level at the high school. Then I'll look at the schools feeding into the high school, generally looking at the TEA website that gives a bunch of metrics: Texas Academic Performance Reports
It may be obvious, but I'll state it anyway - academic performance metrics for schools are VERY HIGHLY correlated to the socioeconomic status of the student body. It's no coincidence that Highland Park and Southlake have very high "numbers", while schools serving South Dallas do not. So I'll also take that into account a bit. For example, Plano ISD overall and Pearce HS in Richardson have less affluent demographics but put up great numbers. Frisco ISD is quite affluent but puts up good-but-not-great numbers (although Liberty HS may be standing above the rest of the district).
With that in mind, Keller ISD seems to underperform what you'd "expect" given its population. For example, Keller High School's percentage of "economically disadvantaged" students is among the lowest in all of the metroplex. You'd EXPECT, therefore, that Keller HS would be right up there with Coppell and Flower Mound as one of the top performers in the area...but it's not. It only had 2 NMSF the last two years (compare with the GCISD high schools, which have averaged about 10 EACH the last two years). IT's SAT average of 1622 put it 16th among open enrollment publics, which is good but not great, and almost all the schools ahead of it had a higher percentage of "economically disadvantaged" students (and I don't think there was a single school with fewer such students below it).
You could repeat this analysis for other Keller ISD high schools, and I'm almost certain you'll get a similar result.
So, the short answer is that Keller ISD doesn't seem to get much "bang for its buck". I have no idea what your commuting situation is like, but if Southlake is not an option (and sadly, 500K doesn't get you much there anymore) I'd consider somewhere in GCISD or HEB ISD. Having said that, I have a friend who sent his 3 children to Keller HS and he speaks highly of it, so what do I know?
Look at the TEA website
All ISDs ratings by district and school are listed
Exemplary is top
Recognized is 2
Acceptable is 3
Unacceptable is self-explanatory
It is easier for an elementary school to achieve Exemplary than a Jr./middle or high school
for several reasons--smaller catchment/smaller enrollment can mean very select student body with positive demographics
Normally younger kids mean more parental involvement which is usually an enhancement for educational environment, smaller classes sizes also positive effect...
As kids age, more drop out, more work, less parental involvement--
larger schools mean more mixed demographics/abilities = more dilution of positive factors
So finding a Jr/middle school with Exemplary is uncommon--especially in district with mixed demographics
Finding a high school with Exemplary ratings is so rare that in Texas probably fewer than 5-6 in entire state...and you can bet those are either Magnet school like science/technology or very positive demographics like Highland Park...
Paschal HS in FTW is rated Acceptable overall but in past has had highest numbers of NMSF in Tarrant County, including Southlake Carroll--because it is a school within a school...
Find the elementaries that feed into Paschal--many are exemplary and highly desired catchments...middle schools are the FTWISD problem...
They are trying more magnets to create impact programs but that doesn't cure systemic issues in existing schools
There are other high schools with similar situation...Bell in HEB has great IB program, does good job with its demographics...HEB has some good elementaries and many special programs...you get a great bang for your education tax dollar but demographics there with so many apartments make it very difficult to fight what is a losing battle...
Keller got too enamoured of its reputation in past and coasted IMO thinking that new middle-income housing developments would take care of themselves...not the case from ratings.
Look at the TEA website
All ISDs ratings by district and school are listed
Exemplary is top
Recognized is 2
Acceptable is 3
Unacceptable is self-explanatory.
Unfortunately, those ratings are now long gone. IIRC it's simply "met standard" and "didn't meet standard" or whatever the other one is.
For elementaries I'd look at the percentage hitting the highest STAAR level ("advanced" or whatever it is). That's not that good a measure, but it's better than nothing and easy to get.
Of course, in practice that means "avoid the elementaries in the poor parts of the districts", because that's how that always works out.
^^^ this. I also look at the teacher info. How many veteran teachers vs newbies/ years at the campus, and are they alternatively certified or did they study education? Look at the principal- background, how many years at the school/in the district? This takes a bit more combing but is good to do when you have narrowed your area.
Unfortunately, those ratings are now long gone. IIRC it's simply "met standard" and "didn't meet standard" or whatever the other one is.
For elementaries I'd look at the percentage hitting the highest STAAR level ("advanced" or whatever it is). That's not that good a measure, but it's better than nothing and easy to get.
Of course, in practice that means "avoid the elementaries in the poor parts of the districts", because that's how that always works out.
Did not know ratings were pulled
Because of new testing measures?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
