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The major major flaws in comparing Asian and Latinos to riot assimilated European groups:
1) Asian and Latinos have already been here as long, if not longer than those groups. They’ve been otherized the entire time. It’s not like there were no Asian and Hispanic a here in the 1800s or even prior in the case of Hispanics. Chinese exclusion act goes back to the 1880s. Mexicans have been getting treated poorly since the 1600s. Puerto Rican and Dominicans have been ghettoized dating back to the 1940s. In fact in Hartford CT there were white vs Puerto Rican racial riots in the 1960s occurring mostly on the south side of the city. In Boston, Irish folks firebombed the homes of Puerto Ricans living in a South Boston housing project in the 1970s. Im doubtful ever Italians got firebombed for living in Irish neighborhoods.
This is a matter of sheer numbers though. The number of Asian and Latino immigrants in the U.S. before the 1960's absolutely pales in comparison to the number of European immigrants (it wasn't until changes to immigration law in the 60's that you see immigration waves from Asia, Africa, and Latin America similar in quantity to European immigration waves in the 19th/early 20th centuries), and we weren't engaged in large-scale economic competition with them during that era either. From the early 1800's up until the Great Depression when the first wave of the Great Migration concluded, African Americans often found themselves competing in the same labor market as various European immigrant groups and, consequentially, targeted in violent labor riots. Before the NYC Draft Riots in 1863, the Irish attacked Black laborers in Cincinnati in 1829 and afterwards Memphis in 1866 and Patenburg, NJ in 1872.
2) they’re barrier isn’t just linguistic/religious/cultural like white immigrants it’s based in phenotype and skin color. If it were that easy to assimilate then they would‘be by now.
Many White Latinos have already done so, and there were/are differences in phenotype/skin color between some southern/eastern European groups and those of British/Nordic descent. Benjamin Franklin had some interesting observations in this respect:
Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.
Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth.
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3) even if you look to assimilate into mainstream culture it doesnt grant you the power wealth or social capital to lay the role white Americans have played in regard to black people
Assimilation into the mainstream most certainly grants one social capital (that's arguably the primary benefit of assimilation) and access to networks that can be leveraged to acquire the power and wealth that White Americans have collectively acquired. That's a more favorable position than the one Black Americans have historically been relegated to.
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4) whites of the alt right and whites vested in white supremacy fear a multi cultural America and resent Asian and Hispanic immigrants. They don’t fear a black America (albeit anti blackness is at the bedrock of their hate) Listen to a guy like Richard Spencer. These folks dismay multi racial America and the Asian and Hispanic immigrants that are dwindling their share.
Agreed.
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5) Asian and Hispanics vote reliably democrat (especially Asians) even if their shares are lower than blacks. There aren’t known or visible anti black Asian and Hispanic organizations and hate crimes occurring. These in my opinion are major major difference between white Americans who by and large vote Republican and are well known to have anti-black hate groups and societies within their ranks. That’s huge. Asians and Hispanics have been trying to voice their own frustrations with racism and white supremacy in America.all while fighting for more representation in the media. Especially as of late. Not fair to pretend that not happening.
Agreed, and I linked to articles making some of these same points in my prior post.
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Hard to say we’re losing political influence- I see the opposite. I don’t see value in the ADOS/FBA vs everybody dichotomy that only were eager to create. Seems to be following the same folly as reactionary white Americans. But again in my upbringing I’m used to mostly non ADOS environment and brushing shoulders with mostly immigrants/children of immigrants and living in highly racially diverse environments. So I really just don’t feel that friction- which is a me thing.
Other immigrant groups aren't the enemy at all (except Dinesh D'Souza) and Black folks by and large aren't anti-immigrant, but at the same time, when weaknesses and loopholes in our immigration system are exploited in ways that put segments of the African American population at an economic disadvantage, there will naturally be disappointment. And the differences in perspectives between foreign-born first-generation and American-raised second-generation immigrants is very real. Now, do I personally feel that friction? Not at all, but I've had situations relayed to me that let me know it's not something being fabricated. I recall speaking with one of my fraternity brothers once a few years back who is a little younger than me and a second-generation Jamaican native about this issue, and he readily admitted to me that he held anti-native African American views earlier in his life, but now he gets it more than most natives do.
That's not entirely true and I wish African Americans would stop playing victim to how they're treated by Continental Africans and Caribbean immigrants.
Of course that's not true of all first-generation African and Caribbean immigrants but it's common enough to be a recognized thing. I have had an experience or two that somewhat fit the bill but the vast majority didn't. Heck, my aunt married the son of Jamaican immigrants and we're all cool with each other with no kind of friction whatsoever. But again, I'm aware that of what's behind it all and that greater exposure and experiences help to significantly modify perspectives, and I'm even open to having conversations with those who share a less-than-favorable perspective of Black Americans. At least we do tend to live near each other whereas we're likely to have tons, maybe even most, of White co-workers who haven't even stepped foot on "our" side of town (and you later find out that they think we're all dodging bullets 24/7). At the end of the day though, I'm rooting for the whole Diaspora.
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While some Black immigrants took their cues from the dominant society on AA's, AA's took those same cues from the dominant society in how they interact with other Black people globally. A lot of our people have this crazy dichotomy when it comes to a White supremacy mentality. A lot of us will call out White supremacy without realizing we've been conditioned by the very thing were against and we'll look at things from that same perspective.
I don't know how many times I've heard in my lifetime AA's disrespecting Africans and Caribbean's. And if you're a dark skin African forget about it. You got it the worst. A lot of our people can be truly ugly towards these groups and repeat things to Africans from what they've seen from Western media. I'll never forget a Sudanese brotha showed up to my job and on the first day you had a bunch of our people make some very insulting jokes to his face.
"You know how to ride a cheetah?" " Yall eat kitkats in Africa?" "Yall got buildings in Africa like cities?" " Imma leave you alone, don't want you to chunk a spear at me, you know they don't play about them spears!"
And the Sudanese Brotha just uncomfortably laughing knowing deep down inside he's pissed. And this was in 2018. Just think about the comments the first group of immigrants were getting decades ago. Majority of Black Americans didn't want to associate with Africa. Look at the images media feed our Mothers and Grandparents of Africa(I was born in 84). Tarzan, cannibals, mud huts, poverty, flies stuck to their face,etc.
Western media by and large has never painted an accurate depiction of the continent and outside of the internet they still don't. Look at the major media outlets like CNN/MSNBC and even VICE or Complex supposedly liberal media outlets, they never show you anything positive on the continent.
Absolutely, and I thought I mentioned that in my post but I did in this post in the Columbia, SC forum when the issue came up (and I should have said that it's true of some of them and not implied that it's more true than not; I'll make sure to watch my words more carefully in the future on this issue).
As far as the ignorance of some of our people when it comes to Africa, all I can do is shake my head at some of it. At my first job out of college, one of my co-workers was an African immigrant (not sure which country) who was a cool guy who got along with everyone and I'm glad that sort of ignorance wasn't present among the AA employees. But I'll never forget one time he humorously remarked--and I forget what the subject of the discussion was or how it came up--that back in his home country, whatever animal they killed, they ate. We all laughed because he said it half-jokingly/half-true and that it wasn't far off from what us country folk (used to) do.
The only thing that worries me is that African Americans may become increasingly marginalized as other immigrant populations come into the United States. The number of blacks in elite schools is ridiclously low compared to Asians and whites.
If the economic/social situation for blacks does not change, overtime blacks will remain a large underclass while Asians/whites/and a small percentage of successful Hispanics control the top tiers of American society.
If you look at the stats Asian Americans are the fastest growing minority. And Asians and Hispanics are intermarrying more with whites and distancing themselves from blacks more and more as the gap between classes expand. Even though the white proportion of the population is decreasing the definition of whiteness will eventually expand. While the dichotomy between non black and black remains. The number of blacks is fairly low (holding at 12 or 13 percent) compared to the expanding populations of immigrants from Asia and Mexico. Furthermore the political power of blacks is decreasing compared to other ethnic minorities.
This post is generally on point. A lot of research and polling indicates that Asians and Hispanics may be absorbed into “whiteness”.
Of course that's not true of all first-generation African and Caribbean immigrants but it's common enough to be a recognized thing. I have had an experience or two that somewhat fit the bill but the vast majority didn't. Heck, my aunt married the son of Jamaican immigrants and we're all cool with each other with no kind of friction whatsoever. But again, I'm aware that of what's behind it all and that greater exposure and experiences help to significantly modify perspectives, and I'm even open to having conversations with those who share a less-than-favorable perspective of Black Americans. At least we do tend to live near each other whereas we're likely to have tons, maybe even most, of White co-workers who haven't even stepped foot on "our" side of town (and you later find out that they think we're all dodging bullets 24/7). At the end of the day though, I'm rooting for the whole Diaspora.
Absolutely, and I thought I mentioned that in my post but I did in this post in the Columbia, SC forum when the issue came up (and I should have said that it's true of some of them and not implied that it's more true than not; I'll make sure to watch my words more carefully in the future on this issue).
As far as the ignorance of some of our people when it comes to Africa, all I can do is shake my head at some of it. At my first job out of college, one of my co-workers was an African immigrant (not sure which country) who was a cool guy who got along with everyone and I'm glad that sort of ignorance wasn't present among the AA employees. But I'll never forget one time he humorously remarked--and I forget what the subject of the discussion was or how it came up--that back in his home country, whatever animal they killed, they ate. We all laughed because he said it half-jokingly/half-true and that it wasn't far off from what us country folk (used to) do.
I think in these discussions we also need to acknowledge the other side, like Redlionjr said, of antiAfrican /anti black immigrant sentiments among many African Americans. I’m second generation American so I tend to not input too much of these discussions as I don’t want to be seen as dismissive to multigenerational African Americans bringing up their experiences with Black immigrants but I find that the anti black immigrant sentiments held by many are almost never talked about. I think this is important to acknowledge so we can move on as a diaspora.
I (white) lived in a small town (5,000) in the south, 50% black, and if I were black, I'd never want to be there. But blacks in larger cities, like Albany, Georgia, and Alexandria, Louisiana, seemed pretty relaxed and comfortable. A lot more liveable than Chicago's south side.
That's not entirely true and I wish African Americans would stop playing victim to how they're treated by Continental Africans and Caribbean immigrants.
While some Black immigrants took their cues from the dominant society on AA's, AA's took those same cues from the dominant society in how they interact with other Black people globally. A lot of our people have this crazy dichotomy when it comes to a White supremacy mentality. A lot of us will call out White supremacy without realizing we've been conditioned by the very thing were against and we'll look at things from that same perspective.
I don't know how many times I've heard in my lifetime AA's disrespecting Africans and Caribbean's. And if you're a dark skin African forget about it. You got it the worst. A lot of our people can be truly ugly towards these groups and repeat things to Africans from what they've seen from Western media. I'll never forget a Sudanese brotha showed up to my job and on the first day you had a bunch of our people make some very insulting jokes to his face.
"You know how to ride a cheetah?" " Yall eat kitkats in Africa?" "Yall got buildings in Africa like cities?" " Imma leave you alone, don't want you to chunk a spear at me, you know they don't play about them spears!"
And the Sudanese Brotha just uncomfortably laughing knowing deep down inside he's pissed. And this was in 2018. Just think about the comments the first group of immigrants were getting decades ago. Majority of Black Americans didn't want to associate with Africa. Look at the images media feed our Mothers and Grandparents of Africa(I was born in 84). Tarzan, cannibals, mud huts, poverty, flies stuck to their face,etc.
Western media by and large has never painted an accurate depiction of the continent and outside of the internet they still don't. Look at the major media outlets like CNN/MSNBC and even VICE or Complex supposedly liberal media outlets, they never show you anything positive on the continent.
And even though I'm African American, I was hit with strays growing up in the 90s. Grew up in a small East Texas city that's overwhelmingly Southern south Black American. In the 90s I could count on one hand the African community that was there. My parents at the time were in a Pan African organization and my Dad was like 1 of 2 Black guys in the entire small city to have locks at the time. Because he spoke about Pan African and Pro Black things to the community and he had locks people thought he was Jamaican. And I use to hear all kind of Jamaican jokes growing up than. Now because I was AA, it didn't bother me but I can only imagine had that been a real Jamaican kid growing up in that setting.
We can point fingers all day, won't let to anywhere but I think more of our people gotta start being completely honest. We're the majority and no matter how much some African and Caribbean immigrants want to assimilate into dominant society because of their skin on some level they have to assimilate to the majority African American population. Most of their children end up doing it eventually.
I agree with this, I live in West Houston which is probably one of the most diverse areas in the south. Even if Asian and Hispanic immigrants adopt a dominant society mindset it's not really coming from a place of how they choose to identify themselves. These groups are not trying to assimilate into a WASP identity like many European immigrants of the past. If anything they're taking advantage of what the dominant society claims to value( education, economic opportunities) and using it to benefit them. Because they don't have the same set of barriers we have as Black people they're going to go in those spaces once dominated by affluent White people in order to succeed in this country. That's not them trying to be White, that's them playing the system.
Now I am well aware that there are Asians and Hispanics who anti-Blackness in their culture as well. That is very real but Asians and Hispanics who have that mindset don't really have power in this country. And it probably doesn't effect your day to day life like structural racism does in this country everyday.
Now I do feel Black Americans are becoming more marginalized with the influx of Asian and Hispanic groups but that's not their fault. Black Americans spent decades and decades assimilating into a society that didn't want anything to do with them. By and large we haven't played the game right.
And this increasing ADOS/FBA presence won't do us collectively any good. It's funny cause they actually remind me of WASP during the new of wave of Immigration in the late 1800s. With the presence of new immigrants and 2nd and 3rd gen immigrants making their mark on American culture, a lot of African Americans feel threatened just like the WASP of the past. Than they start forming these groups in response to these new immigrants. I mean ADOS/FBA are lowkey hate groups. They claimed it was about reparations (even though we've had organizations before focus specifically on reparations) but they spend way more time with Anti-African and Caribbean rhetoric daily.
I agree with all you've said here, especially with the first half of your post about AA's and their contact with other black peoples. I WILL say that it isn't one-sided by a LONG SHOT. They feel exactly the same way about us...perhaps to an even more sinister degree, because while it's true that we joke about them "chunking spears" and "racing cheetahs", that's exactly what they are: JOKES (albeit distasteful). On THEIR end, how they feel about US are no jokes AT ALL. They truly believe everything they've heard about us.
I dated a Somalian girl that I worked with years ago, and we would STAY arguing with each other about religion (I'm Christian, she's Muslim) and the differences between AA's and other black peoples. A huge point of contention between us is that she was very obtuse to the plight of blacks born in America...she would very casually say stuff like, "Ya'll don't have any ancestors and you don't know where you came from and I know you wish you did". She would say stuff like that in the midst of an argument. The other big thing was religion (and that's what ultimately broke us up )...she would talk about how it's stupid for a man to die for someone else's sins, so it couldn't have happened, and that we're even stupider for worshipping a man that, if he really DID exist, was a dumbass. I would hit back even harder with something like, "Well, I think it's extremely disgusting that YOU worship a guy who was notorious for raping prepubescent girls (even married a 6 year old), murdering anyone who criticized him, and regularly went against his own rules and laws. THAT would make her tear up and throw stuff at me .
My point is that it may seem insensitive for AA's to joke about other black peoples, but at least we can all realize that they are just jokes...no one REALLY thinks that Africans race cheetahs or wrestle lions. But those same people REALLY think that we are a lost people and are just pathetic.
I agree with all you've said here, especially with the first half of your post about AA's and their contact with other black peoples. I WILL say that it isn't one-sided by a LONG SHOT. They feel exactly the same way about us...perhaps to an even more sinister degree, because while it's true that we joke about them "chunking spears" and "racing cheetahs", that's exactly what they are: JOKES (albeit distasteful). On THEIR end, how they feel about US are no jokes AT ALL. They truly believe everything they've heard about us.
I dated a Somalian girl that I worked with years ago, and we would STAY arguing with each other about religion (I'm Christian, she's Muslim) and the differences between AA's and other black peoples. A huge point of contention between us is that she was very obtuse to the plight of blacks born in America...she would very casually say stuff like, "Ya'll don't have any ancestors and you don't know where you came from and I know you wish you did". She would say stuff like that in the midst of an argument. The other big thing was religion (and that's what ultimately broke us up )...she would talk about how it's stupid for a man to die for someone else's sins, so it couldn't have happened, and that we're even stupider for worshipping a man that, if he really DID exist, was a dumbass. I would hit back even harder with something like, "Well, I think it's extremely disgusting that YOU worship a guy who was notorious for raping prepubescent girls (even married a 6 year old), murdering anyone who criticized him, and regularly went against his own rules and laws. THAT would make her tear up and throw stuff at me .
My point is that it may seem insensitive for AA's to joke about other black peoples, but at least we can all realize that they are just jokes...no one REALLY thinks that Africans race cheetahs or wrestle lions. But those same people REALLY think that we are a lost people and are just pathetic.
This is where I have to push back.
1) The statement "They feel exactly the same way about us". I have a problem with that. Africa has a population of over 1.2 Billion people. To say THEY feel this way is a grossly overexaggerated statement. Unless you've been to all 54 countries and spoke with all ethnic groups (which btw Africa has the most diverse group of human beings genetically and culturally) you can't generalize like that. And even if you were to narrow it down to African immigrants here in America you mean to tell me they ALL feel that way?
2) Also I use jokes as ONE example. You think the comments I heard about Africa from African Americans throughout my life is just some jokes. I can assure you there's been a lot worst said that were beyond jokes that I've heard throughout my life. Again you have to realize I grew up in a Pan African household since I was young. Both my parents are AA btw but my Pops was and still is heavy into Pan African/ Pro- Black teachings so he instilled that in me and my siblings at a very early age. That wasn't common where I grew up and I assure you it's not common in AA households period especially during the 90s when Pan African and Pro Blackness was more mainstream than it is now. But being that I've always been aware of my African lineage and always had a desire to identify as an African and connect and visit Africa, I always hear some pretty ugly comments from our own people about Africa and Africans.
3) Now I'm not dismissing the fact that some Continental Africans feel a certain way about AA's. A lot of immigrants have bought into dominant narrative of AA's. Which btw, some of us can do a better job too of putting out more positive images of ourselves to the global community. Just look at the entertainers America puts out that are AA. But I'm not placing blame on us, a human being should be able differentiate between what they see on tv and what's in reality.
4) Now if your Somalian girl truly hated AA's than why did she date you in the first place? You said she would say these things during an argument. AND? I'm pretty sure we've all said some non PC things in the heat of an argument. I say some negative generalizing stuff about Houston sometimes when me and my Wife get into sometimes. She's a Houstonian, I'm a East Texan. She say's stuff about East Texas so what? Arguing about religion also has nothing to do with AA vs. African. I don't believe in religion at all. You know how many arguments I got into with my AA women I dated who were Christians? Not to mention a lot of Christians(black,white,whatever) can be very judgmental to beliefs outside of their religion.
I (white) lived in a small town (5,000) in the south, 50% black, and if I were black, I'd never want to be there. But blacks in larger cities, like Albany, Georgia, and Alexandria, Louisiana, seemed pretty relaxed and comfortable. A lot more livable than Chicago's south side.
In the north, one finds few small communities with minority, especially black populations, opposite of what one sees in the south. I believe such is a vestige of the agricultural/slave history of the south where many more AAs had roots. Black folks in the north like many European immigrants migrated to the big cities.
In the north, one finds few small communities with minority, especially black populations, opposite of what one sees in the south. I believe such is a vestige of the agricultural/slave history of the south where many more AAs had roots. Black folks in the north like many European immigrants migrated to the big cities.
Not always. In fact, many black people migrated to the North as seasonal migrant farm workers. That is why you can find select smaller communities with visible to decent black population in parts of NY and NJ. Some stayed in those towns or they moved to nearby cities, big and small.
In fact, a lot of black people in the Utica-Rome area of NY have roots in the Belle Glade/Pahokee area of FL, as some came via the migrant farm route and then moved to either Utica or Rome.
This is a matter of sheer numbers though. The number of Asian and Latino immigrants in the U.S. before the 1960's absolutely pales in comparison to the number of European immigrants
While I don't know about any incidents of firebombing between Italians and Irish, they have certainly had at least a few violent clashes with each other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamaroneck_riot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_riot
Many White Latinos have already done so, [/indent]
Assimilation into the mainstream most certainly grants one social capital (that's arguably the primary benefit of assimilation) and access to networks that can be leveraged to acquire the power and wealth that White Americans have collectively acquired. That's a more favorable position than the one Black Americans have historically been relegated to.
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1.Bruh there's 80 Million Asian and Latinos in the US....they're still not considered white. When the sheer number gonna kick in? Even when there were Mexican and Nativ Americans in bulk in the west they were still otherized.
2. White Latinos were the decided minority of Latinos in the 2020 census. White Latinos are white people who speak Spanish. I'm not talking about them as they're not the bulk of Latinos we have in this country.
3. Assimilation to the mainstream grant everyone some social capital-black Americans too. Still doesn't put you on footing with white people. There's a spectrum of disadvantage.
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)...she would talk about how it's stupid for a man to die for someone else's sins, so it couldn't have happened, and that we're even stupider for worshipping a man that, if he really DID exist, was a dumbass. I would hit back even harder with something like, "Well, I think it's extremely disgusting that YOU worship a guy who was notorious for raping prepubescent girls (even married a 6 year old), murdering anyone who criticized him, and regularly went against his own rules and laws. THAT would make her tear up and throw stuff at me 
