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Everything from 39 degrees north on down is south and that falls within Virginia and Maryland but I'm not even going to try to tell anyone who they are. I'm just saying this is the way I look at it, and the colonizers saw it that way too as far as what I have read in history.
If you want to be a northeasterner with the rest of us from up north, and you are from Virginia or Maryland or DC, so be it. It doesn't change anything anyway. It's just a word. Just don't expect most people from Philly to down east to think so, thus all the disagreement.
I lived in the region. I mean, how many people participating in this thread consisteny post in the DC or Maryland subforums? I know as much about the region as anyone on here, which is why I'm always posting in the DC forum.
You lived in DC, not Towson, not Easton or Frederick, not Baltimore, not Annapolis or Ellicott City. I dont doubt you are familiar with DC. But with Maryland, Pennsylvania, southern Jersey and Delaware? No, you don't sound acquainted at all. I don't blame you though. Most outsiders go straight to DC which is the hotspot. They have less interest in "overlooked" cities like Philadelphia and Baltimore, let alone the actual towns in the region where the majority of the population lives. We get people like that heading to DC all the time. Do they know Maryland? No. Many of them seem to think that DC is Maryland, which it is not.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
First, my argument was that Maryland isn't the Northeast. That's what this thread about anyway. I've already stated the reasons why I believe that to be the case.
You aren't familiar with the region, you are familiar with DC. You continually talk about DC as if it is part of Maryland. It's suburbs make up a part of Maryland, but DC is not Maryland. Your views on Maryland's place come from agenda-driven historical anecdotes that you have carefully cherry picked.
For example you say that Maryland had slavery in 1860, but overlook the fact that they also had the largest free black population in country, and Baltimore had the largest free black population of any American city.
You say that Maryland blacks were 50% enslaved, but you conveniently overlook that 50% of Maryland blacks were free, which is totally incomparable to any southern state. The next closest was Virginia at what? Less than 10%?
You overlook that Maryland had little over 10% of it's population as slaves while all southern states had a slave populations of AT LEAST 30%. You overlook the fact that MAryland had the second highest percentage of free blacks as a percentage of it's population after Delaware.
Just one example Bajan Yankee where you only pull out the one part that serves your argument and overlook the other several points that counter it. Either way, Bajan Yankee, slavery was a very long time ago and doesn't decide what states are northeastern in 2014. Is it really that decisive of an issue in 2014 that we need to continually discuss it as if it is of critical importance?
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Second, do you believe that South Florida is southern?
This conversation isn't about Florida. Nothing of be value will be achieved by making off topic comparisons to South Florida.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Third, it's not that much of a stretch to conclude that Maryland is southern considering that it was historically a southern state and that 40% of respondents in a focus poll responded that it was a southern state.
The Shelton Reed And in that same study around 10% of people from Michigan, Utah, Illinois, Ohio, and Arizona claimed to be southerns.
And if 40% of Marylander's claimed to be southern doesn't that mean that 60% claimed not to be southern?
Oh and here's another poll where only 6% of people thought Maryland is southern.
Anyways I think that all that needs to be said has been said. I would love to say "I'm a southerner" but looking at it objectively and without an agenda I acknowledge that it is definetely the northeast like Philadelphia, central PA, southern Jersey, and Delaware. This should be clear to anyone who is actually familiar with the region (not just DC). Take that drive down to Charlottesville or Asheville and tell me with a straight face that Maryland is closer to that than Allentown or Ithaca.
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Originally Posted by 11KAP
Everything from 39 degrees north on down is south and that falls within Virginia and Maryland but I'm not even going to try to tell anyone who they are. I'm just saying this is the way I look at it, and the colonizers saw it that way too as far as what I have read in history.
If you want to be a northeasterner with the rest of us from up north, and you are from Virginia or Maryland or DC, so be it. It doesn't change anything anyway. It's just a word. Just don't expect most people from Philly to down east to think so, thus all the disagreement.
Carry on tho.
You seem to keep on missing the part where I repeatedly state I would prefer to be a southerner. But we aren't. So the "you are trying to be northeastern" line is a total cop out. Sorry, but I would prefer to be southeastern. But I'm not going to lie and say we have more in common with people in Durham compared to Pittsburgh. And hate to burst your bubble but most in Philadelphia laugh at the notion that Maryland and Delaware are the south. The only time I come across this is when I get on City Data and see the same handful of people pushing their agenda.
And take another look at that map. The geographic line between north and south in the US lies around the Virginia/NC border. The 39 degrees logic is nonsense that no one says. Trace from Miami to Maine and tell me where the middle is. It's at least a state below Maryland. Seems blatantly obvious.
You lived in DC, not Towson, not Easton or Frederick, not Baltimore, not Annapolis or Ellicott City. I dont doubt you are familiar with DC. But with Maryland, Pennsylvania, southern Jersey and Delaware? No, you don't sound acquainted at all.
I'm from Philadelphia. In fact, I'm the only person in this thread (to my knowledge) who attended Philadelphia public schools from K through 12.
And yes, I'm familiar with Maryland. I post in the Maryland forum too.
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
Your views on Maryland's place come from agenda-driven historical anecdotes that you have carefully cherry picked.
LOL. Okay.
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
For example you say that Maryland had slavery in 1860, but overlook the fact that they also had the largest free black population in country, and Baltimore had the largest free black population of any American city.
And?
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
You say that Maryland blacks were 50% enslaved, but you conveniently overlook that 50% of Maryland blacks were free, which is totally incomparable to any southern state. The next closest was Virginia at what? Less than 10%?
"Conveniently" makes it sound like I'm on here hating...just trying to make Maryland look bad or something. I was pointing out the differences between Maryland and northern states...not comparing Maryland to southern states.
Besides, there's a lot of detail behind Maryland's "free" black population. It wasn't as simple as slave masters accepting the tenets of Quakerism and benevolently setting all of their slaves free. Sometimes "free" persons were indentured servants. Sometimes slaves were term slaves who served as slaves up to a certain age (before becoming indentured servants).
It's like you're getting mad because I'm destroying some belief that Maryland was full of good people who shared the sentiments of William Lloyd Garrison. I'm not really concerned about how moral, ethical and liberal Marylanders were. I'm just pointing out things about the state that make it distinct from the Northeast. And I'm pointing out reasons why the state was considered a southern state for much of its existence.
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
Just one example Bajan Yankee where you only pull out the one part that serves your argument and overlook the other several points that counter it. Either way, Bajan Yankee, slavery was a very long time ago and doesn't decide what states are northeastern in 2014. Is it really that decisive of an issue in 2014 that we need to continually discuss it as if it is of critical importance?
Yes, because it's all part of the story in explaining why and how things ended up the way they are.
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
This conversation isn't about Florida. Nothing of be value will be achieved by making off topic comparisons to South Florida.
It's not off topic. If South Florida can be southern, then so can Maryland. South Florida is even more transplant-dominated than Maryland.
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
The Shelton Reed And in that same study around 10% of people from Michigan, Utah, Illinois, Ohio, and Arizona claimed to be southerns.
Reed asked two different questions. The first was "Are you a southerner?" The second was "Is your community in the South?" 40% responded in the affirmative to the last question. And that makes sense because if asked the last question, I would have responded "Yes" even though I was a transplant from Pennsylvania.
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
And if 40% of Marylander's claimed to be southern doesn't that mean that 60% claimed not to be southern?
Huh?
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
Oh and here's another poll where only 6% of people thought Maryland is southern.
That poll is not the same as a poll run by a PoliSci department that adheres to statistical best practices. That would be like putting a poll on the New York Times and concluding that 90% of Alabamans will vote for Barack Obama. A poll has to be representative of the population and you achieve that by weighting it.
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
Anyways I think that all that needs to be said has been said. I would love to say "I'm a southerner" but looking at it objectively and without an agenda I acknowledge that it is definetely the northeast like Philadelphia, central PA, southern Jersey, and Delaware. This should be clear to anyone who is actually familiar with the region (not just DC). Take that drive down to Charlottesville or Asheville and tell me with a straight face that Maryland is closer to that than Allentown or Ithaca.
LOL. The first bolded part is hilarious.
DC is so small that you can't help but know the whole area. Especially if you have family in places like Lusbee, Huntingtown, Brandywine (which is the case for a lot of Black people since we were, you know, like slaves in a lot of these places). LOL.
This conversation isn't about Florida. Nothing of be value will be achieved by making off topic comparisons to South Florida.
I actually disagree with this statement. Based on what I've read so far, many of the arguments are speaking of whether or not Maryland is "culturally" southern or northern. In this respect, the same could be said about Florida (especially southern and Tampa / Orlando areas).
If we accept that the "southerness" or "northerness" of a state determines whether it's part of the south or the north... we would then need to accept that states of ANY geographical location can be considered part of the south or part of the north.
I am from CT and would NOT lump Maryland in to the Northeast. Not because of their "southerness" but because of their physical location. It does NOT matter how many New Yorkers or New Jersey people you throw into MD, it will never be a Northeast state.
I actually disagree with this statement. Based on what I've read so far, many of the arguments are speaking of whether or not Maryland is "culturally" southern or northern. In this respect, the same could be said about Florida (especially southern and Tampa / Orlando areas).
If we accept that the "southerness" or "northerness" of a state determines whether it's part of the south or the north... we would then need to accept that states of ANY geographical location can be considered part of the south or part of the north.
And that was precisely my point. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I think about 40% of non-Hispanic Whites in the Miami metro area are either Jewish or Italian. Can you really get more "northeastern" than that? Toss in the large West Indian and Puerto Rican population and you've got a little NYC on the beach.
That said, Florida is stil a southern state. And South Florida is still in the South.
Everything from 39 degrees north on down is south and that falls within Virginia and Maryland but I'm not even going to try to tell anyone who they are. I'm just saying this is the way I look at it, and the colonizers saw it that way too as far as what I have read in history.
If you want to be a northeasterner with the rest of us from up north, and you are from Virginia or Maryland or DC, so be it. It doesn't change anything anyway. It's just a word. Just don't expect most people from Philly to down east to think so, thus all the disagreement.
Carry on tho.
Born and raised Philadelphian here and I believe that both MD and DE are not Northeastern states, (though extreme northern Delaware is the most northeastern like area thats is not technically in the Northeast) but they are also not southern states. I believe Maryland and Delaware are grey area or neutral states of the east coast due to their southern and non-southern traits.
Born and raised Philadelphian here and I believe that both MD and DE are not Northeastern states, (though extreme northern Delaware is the most northeastern like area thats is not technically in the Northeast) but they are also not southern states. I believe Maryland and Delaware are grey area or neutral states of the east coast due to their southern and non-southern traits.
Why are you being such a hater? Please take your hate-ridden agenda somewhere else, please. You are not being objective in the least.
Of course, you don't mind standing in front of a bus and holding everyone up when people of a different socioeconomic milieu are completely invisible to you.
Also to note is South of Delware bay there is a distint shift from sort of hard coastlines (Bluffs/beaches) to tracks of Marsh "land" and compare the flow in the last 80 miles of the Patomac River to the Merrimack River, the Coastal plain expands which is a geographic shift between NE and SE coastal regions.
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