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Interesting debate on what's upstate vs downstate. Kind of reminds me of debates on the NJ forum about what's North Jersey vs South Jersey.
But really, aren't "upstate" and "downstate" relative terms? Kind of like "uptown" and "downtown" are in Manhattan? Uptown and downtown aren't discrete places. They're directions. If you're at 42nd Street and want to go to 14th Street, you head downtown. If you're at Houston Street and want to go to 14th, you head uptown.
I go to Orange County sometimes, and I say I'm "going upstate." I don't mean I'm going to a zone called UPSTATE. Instead, I'm heading north, up the state, upstate. I feel like someone in the Bronx could go upstate to get to Tarrytown, while someone from Poughkeepsie heads downstate to get there.
Based on the conversation so far, I could be alone on this.
Yes, it can be flexible in terms of what is consider one or the other. However, there are places that are definitely one or the other.
Interesting debate on what's upstate vs downstate. Kind of reminds me of debates on the NJ forum about what's North Jersey vs South Jersey.
But really, aren't "upstate" and "downstate" relative terms? Kind of like "uptown" and "downtown" are in Manhattan? Uptown and downtown aren't discrete places. They're directions. If you're at 42nd Street and want to go to 14th Street, you head downtown. If you're at Houston Street and want to go to 14th, you head uptown.
I go to Orange County sometimes, and I say I'm "going upstate." I don't mean I'm going to a zone called UPSTATE. Instead, I'm heading north, up the state, upstate. I feel like someone in the Bronx could go upstate to get to Tarrytown, while someone from Poughkeepsie heads downstate to get there.
Based on the conversation so far, I could be alone on this.
It's definitely different when discussing directions. Someone going to Westchester County from the city is technically going Upstate, but anyone that says literally Westchester County is considered Upstate NY is absolutely wrong. If you're talking to someone on the west coast who says they're from Upstate NY, you're definitely not conjuring images of Tarrytown and Metro North. No, you're imagining Rust Belt, feet of snow, rural drives, beautiful lakes, skiing, and Great Lakes accents.
Interesting debate on what's upstate vs downstate. Kind of reminds me of debates on the NJ forum about what's North Jersey vs South Jersey.
But really, aren't "upstate" and "downstate" relative terms? Kind of like "uptown" and "downtown" are in Manhattan? Uptown and downtown aren't discrete places. They're directions. If you're at 42nd Street and want to go to 14th Street, you head downtown. If you're at Houston Street and want to go to 14th, you head uptown.
I go to Orange County sometimes, and I say I'm "going upstate." I don't mean I'm going to a zone called UPSTATE. Instead, I'm heading north, up the state, upstate. I feel like someone in the Bronx could go upstate to get to Tarrytown, while someone from Poughkeepsie heads downstate to get there.
Based on the conversation so far, I could be alone on this.
There's an almost endless debate on what is Upstate vs. Downstate.
Most people agree that #1 & # 2 are definitely downstate.
IMO 1 and 2 are downstate. I also see # 3 as downstate and # 4 is not really culturally upstate; it is the Capital Region which is quite different from the real Upstate area.
I lived for 3 years in Spokane, and it's basically a distant suburb of Seattle. People in Spokane root for all the Seattle teams, they get all those teams on TV to the same degree as in Seattle, state politics is dominated by Seattle, and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edsg25
This is one of those “I know what I know but don’t know why know it†thing offered up by Bill Maher...
I know that living in a state that it shares with New York City creates experiences unlike any other one big city dominates a state like NYS dominates its staso that means in states that have one major city/metro area and it is the 800 pound elephant in the room
What could a NY stater (upstate.. not NYC etro) tell people in similiar situation like those listed below that would be along the lines of “sure, I know it is cute for IL to have to live with Chicago, but, honey, you have no idea what it is like to live with NYC
I am talking about places with these tpyes of relationship..
MA, BOS
MD, BAL,
GA, ATL
LA, NO
MI, DEY
IL, CHI
CO, DEN
WA, SEA
HI, HON
The rationale for a unified NYS aside from historical legacy isn't very strong. NYC relies on upstate for it's power, water, prisons and colleges. Given that all these areas require heavy government involvement, it is far easier that these activities all occur within the same state. But NYC could probably manage these issues without being part of NYS. In other areas where the state could be helpful (regional housing and transportation planning) it isn't given that NJ is so important to the area.
Upstate NYs relationship to NYC is more complicated. In a direct sense, NYC subsidizes NYSs finances. The upstate economy is also heavily dependent on downstaters to populate it's prisons and colleges. Without a common NYS government, these activities would probably scatter across the greater NYC region. (lower NE, NJ,Eastern PA and Albany/Hudson Valley. ) So there is a lot of concrete downsides for Upstate independence. The flip side is Upstate NY would likely have a tax and regulatory policy more suited to a lower CoL rust belt economy. Taxes, workers comp and energy prices would likely be lower. But it is unclear how much taxes/regulations really effect the local economy. With a handful of exceptions most places in the industrial Great Lakes are struggling.
The rationale for a unified NYS aside from historical legacy isn't very strong. NYC relies on upstate for it's power, water, prisons and colleges. Given that all these areas require heavy government involvement, it is far easier that these activities all occur within the same state. But NYC could probably manage these issues without being part of NYS. In other areas where the state could be helpful (regional housing and transportation planning) it isn't given that NJ is so important to the area.
Upstate NYs relationship to NYC is more complicated. In a direct sense, NYC subsidizes NYSs finances. The upstate economy is also heavily dependent on downstaters to populate it's prisons and colleges. Without a common NYS government, these activities would probably scatter across the greater NYC region. (lower NE, NJ,Eastern PA and Albany/Hudson Valley. ) So there is a lot of concrete downsides for Upstate independence. The flip side is Upstate NY would likely have a tax and regulatory policy more suited to a lower CoL rust belt economy. Taxes, workers comp and energy prices would likely be lower. But it is unclear how much taxes/regulations really effect the local economy. With a handful of exceptions most places in the industrial Great Lakes are struggling.
The 2 highlighted items alone are actually pretty big things to depend on and aren't things that NYC can just take for granted. This doesn't even include the agricultural aspect, in which NYC likely gets some of its food products from farms Upstate as well.
NYC actually has its own prison and college systems. So, they technically do not need Upstate for that.
What Upstate would have to do, in order for a split to make more sense, is to adjust its governmental structure in a way that offers the ability for more consolidation of services. That in turn could help to lower the tax burden aspect.
Also, I think the "industrial" Great Lakes doesn't depend on the same industries decades ago, as they do now and is more of a mixed bag economically.
The 2 highlighted items alone are actually pretty big things to depend on and aren't things that NYC can just take for granted. This doesn't even include the agricultural aspect, in which NYC likely gets some of its food products from farms Upstate as well.
NYC actually has its own prison and college systems. So, they technically do not need Upstate for that.
What Upstate would have to do, in order for a split to make more sense, is to adjust its governmental structure in a way that offers the ability for more consolidation of services. That in turn could help to lower the tax burden aspect.
Also, I think the "industrial" Great Lakes doesn't depend on the same industries decades ago, as they do now and is more of a mixed bag economically.
Why is it a problem if NYC would get its electricity or agricultural produce from other states? There are plenty of other locales that do just that. Its not like NYC will be isolated North Korea style.
Why is it a problem if NYC would get its electricity or agricultural produce from other states? There are plenty of other locales that do just that. Its not like NYC will be isolated North Korea style.
Where did you see that in my post? That wasn't even mentioned. I said that Upstate's agricultural aspect also may play a part as to where NYC gets some of their food from and that it relies on Upstate for water and power, which are facts. So, how did those statements get taken to a place of the first question you asked?
Downstate and Upstate are so different in numerous ways, just like almost every other state has a vast difference between its premier city/cities and its more rural/smaller city regions. However, the dichotomy of NYC MSA to Upstate is the most drastic IMO. Parts of Upstate NY are still dealing with Rust Belt economics and rural poverty, while the NYC MSA is one of the most important in the world and easily the most important in the Western Hemisphere. Treating both of them the same at the state level is not beneficial to either. What's good for one is not good for the other. I.e. taxing NYC-area residents the same level as Upstate residents is ludicrous. Upstate would do quite well IMO if the taxes were much much more lower. It has a lot going for it as a region, but NY taxes are not helpful to a suffering region. If there was a way to tax Upstate differently than Downstate, it would benefit the entire state.
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